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Post by Armageddous on Jun 27, 2010 23:00:00 GMT -5
I wanted to wait until I had painted and installed but I figured this was worthy of an incomplete posting! I have been working on a larger capacity oil pan for the last week in my spare time and am happy with the results so far. The objective is to increase the Justy engine's oil capacity and move the sump away from the bottom of the pan, while also creating a more sufficient drain that doesn't trap crud before it leaves the engine. The stock pan is small and has a big dent right before the drain plug where junk collects over the years. Also the sump to pan clearence is around 1/16". ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00130.jpg) I started by removing the bottom of the pan. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00132.jpg) Then used a "home made" device to bend the metal which will become the pan extension. The metal I used was 3/16" mild steel which was too thick to bend by hand and required lots of heat from an oxy-acetylene torch. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00134.jpg) This is my first piece finished. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00141.jpg) This is the main structure complete with the filler tacked in. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00150.jpg) For the drain plug I welded on a piece of 1" mild steel, drilled it in place with a drill press then tapped it to the thread of the drain plug. I used a GM 12mmx1.75 drain plug with replaceable gasket and magnet. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00163.jpg) Extension complete and tacked on to orignal pan ready to be welded. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00168.jpg) The dreaded leak test! Please note there were only 2 pinhole leaks! Word of the wise, do NOT use water to leak test unless you plan to blast compressed air at the weld. Water has a high surface tension and will not always get pulled through small holes by gravity. A good alternative, which I used, is varsol solvent. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00178.jpg) A couple pics of the pan in it's current state. No leaks and ready for bead blasting and paint! ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00173.jpg) ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00175.jpg) ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00174.jpg) I'm thinkin' some offensive colour of green maybe!?
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Post by xtremzj on Jun 28, 2010 9:30:13 GMT -5
seems neat, but how low that thing gonna hang down? good idea, but i would bash the shit out of that
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Post by Armageddous on Jun 28, 2010 10:25:27 GMT -5
Ground c;earance may become an issue, but this is sort of a prototype. The whole pan is 7 inches high.
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Post by justyjuggler on Jun 28, 2010 13:37:36 GMT -5
Why on earth would you bother?
-Does the oil level drop and starve your engine at high RPMs with the stock pan? -Does the oil in pan surge during hard cornering? Will you install baffles? -Doesn't moving the "oil pickup" away from bottom of pan increase useless oil volume? Or, what's the point of more volume if it isn't accesible?
Anyways, I still don't get it. Similar 'usefull' volume on an engine that may not suffer from any oil volume related problems in the first place??? Nice fabrication work, though.
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Post by maynard on Jun 28, 2010 14:45:00 GMT -5
Are you going to extend the pick-up tube a bit to take advantage of the extra oil? Maybe an inch longer???
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Jun 28, 2010 16:48:34 GMT -5
Why on earth would you bother? -Does the oil level drop and starve your engine at high RPMs with the stock pan? -Does the oil in pan surge during hard cornering? Will you install baffles? -Doesn't moving the "oil pickup" away from bottom of pan increase useless oil volume? Or, what's the point of more volume if it isn't accesible? Anyways, I still don't get it. Similar 'usefull' volume on an engine that may not suffer from any oil volume related problems in the first place??? Nice fabrication work, though. Let's be a little kinder. I wouldn't design mine the way he has and I disagree with the use of some of the nomenclature but all in all I think this is a great step in solving the Justy oil problem. And to answer your question: yes, the Justy does have an oil capacity problem even stock. A stock 1.6 litre Volkswagen Beetle had a 2.5 quart oil capacity. Why then do virtually all 1.6 litre engines today come with a 4 litre sump? Engineers know that engines use oil. They leak it, they burn it, they use it. Almost every car manual says how much oil consumption is allowable. This means that you are not expected to check your oil level every single day. With a 4 quart sump, if you run a quart low, you still have three quarts. I can testify from personal experience that if the oil level is not completely topped off, one can invoke oil starvation in a stock Justy with 155 section tires on a hard right turn (dry pavement of course) I have seen too many window'd engine blocks in junk yard Justys for this not to be true.
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Post by Armageddous on Jun 28, 2010 20:33:43 GMT -5
Yea, lay off! Hehe. Here's the idea. Like SeattleJusty said, it simply is not enough oil for the engine, and here is why. We can all agree that 2.8L of oil in the pan is sufficient to run and drive your justy around while not having any problems. When your engine is wide open and fully circulating there is probably about 1L going thru the engine while leaving 1.8 in the pan. If you're 1L low, that is .8 in the pan. The other advantage is more oil = better oil life. The short and sweet of it is oil breaks down, it doesn't just get dirty, this is why big rigs run between 20 and 60 liters per oil change. Things like moisture, excessive temperatures, and long service intervals can render oil pretty much useless. I will be extending the pickup to take advantage of the oil but still leave around .5" gap. I already said I wasn't done it yet! A huge disadvantage to the stock pan lies within the "crap trap" before the drain plug with the pickup tube hovering over top of it. Remember all those failed oil pumps and worn front covers from fragments passing thru? Changing your oil and filter all the time doesn't prevent the oil pump from sucking up anything it can find in the pan.
I cannot stress enough that this is an overkill prototype to test a theory. Also, practice for when I build a nice one. Thanks for the fab skills compliment. =P
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Danimal
Getting my two Justys back together after a Justy hiatus.
Posts: 589
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Post by Danimal on Jun 29, 2010 10:44:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the fab skills compliment. I can not post without at least doing the same: What an exceptional 'home‒made' vice. The oil pan looks good too. When your engine is wide open and fully circulating there is probably about 1L going thru the engine while leaving 1.8 in the pan. If you're 1L low, that is .8 in the pan. Please, do not let your Justy get as low as a by a whole quart! Checking and topping off the oil frequently and oil changes well before every 3000 miles(especially if your drive wide open often) will help extend the engine life. Engineers know that engines use oil. They leak it, they burn it, they use it. Almost every car manual says how much oil consumption is allowable. This means that you are not expected to check your oil level every single day. With a 4 quart sump, if you run a quart low, you still have three quarts. I can testify from personal experience that if the oil level is not completely topped off, one can invoke oil starvation in a stock Justy with 155 section tires on a hard right turn (dry pavement of course) Seattle Justy, how low was your oil? I would love to know more about your personal experience with oil starvation. As hard as I corner, I ought to keep the oil topped right off? I corner quite hard both left and right and often in quick succession and sometimes let my dipstick read near the minimum mark. Am I not keeping an eye on it as well as I thought I was, just watching it get too low? I really do not mind checking it as much as once a day or every few days; seems less bothersome than building a huge oil pan(sorry, Terry, your work does look great and I hope it does well for you). Thank you, Terry, for the great post and photos! ‒Danimal
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Post by Armageddous on Jun 29, 2010 20:30:21 GMT -5
I couldn't help but take your suggestions and criticisms and use them. Why else would I create a thread before my pan is done!? For you ground clearance people this is for you. I cut out the old section which gained me 3/4" plus moved the drain plug to the side instead of the bottom, which is another 1" or so. Also I tilted the bottom plate to allow forced drainage of all the oil. The old bottom. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00181.jpg) ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00182.jpg) New bottom in place. Note the gap to allow for a penetrative weld. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00183.jpg) The pan completed. I will take some pics once it is painted too. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00185.jpg) I forgot to mention this was all done with a piece of sheet metal, an angle grinder, a mig welder and about 20 cutoff wheels. ;D
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Post by micco on Jun 30, 2010 10:09:09 GMT -5
Let's be a little kinder. I wouldn't design mine the way he has and I disagree with the use of some of the nomenclature but all in all I think this is a great step in solving the Justy oil problem. And to answer your question: yes, the Justy does have an oil capacity problem even stock. A stock 1.6 litre Volkswagen Beetle had a 2.5 quart oil capacity. Why then do virtually all 1.6 litre engines today come with a 4 litre sump? Engineers know that engines use oil. They leak it, they burn it, they use it. Almost every car manual says how much oil consumption is allowable. This means that you are not expected to check your oil level every single day. With a 4 quart sump, if you run a quart low, you still have three quarts. I can testify from personal experience that if the oil level is not completely topped off, one can invoke oil starvation in a stock Justy with 155 section tires on a hard right turn (dry pavement of course) My 3.1-litre Nissan engine has 4-litre oil sump and it supports 2 turbochargers and 700 bhp ;D
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Jun 30, 2010 11:15:36 GMT -5
Let's be a little kinder. I wouldn't design mine the way he has and I disagree with the use of some of the nomenclature but all in all I think this is a great step in solving the Justy oil problem. And to answer your question: yes, the Justy does have an oil capacity problem even stock. A stock 1.6 litre Volkswagen Beetle had a 2.5 quart oil capacity. Why then do virtually all 1.6 litre engines today come with a 4 litre sump? Engineers know that engines use oil. They leak it, they burn it, they use it. Almost every car manual says how much oil consumption is allowable. This means that you are not expected to check your oil level every single day. With a 4 quart sump, if you run a quart low, you still have three quarts. I can testify from personal experience that if the oil level is not completely topped off, one can invoke oil starvation in a stock Justy with 155 section tires on a hard right turn (dry pavement of course) My 3.1-litre Nissan engine has 4-litre oil sump and it supports 2 turbochargers and 700 bhp ;D Sure, that sounds about right. Most V8s still hold about 4 quarts or so. 4 quarts is enough for most engines. 2.9 quarts in my opinion is irresponsible design for which the only * cure is a more responsible owner<--- whom checks the oil level and replaces it with great regularity. * Or one can enhance the design/capacity insteadP.S. did that 3.1 V6 come stock with a 4 litre sump? Yes? Well did it come stock with two turbos and 700HP? ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I'm just sayin'
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Post by justyjuggler on Jun 30, 2010 12:30:44 GMT -5
When your engine is wide open and fully circulating there is probably about 1L going thru the engine while leaving 1.8 in the pan. If you're 1L low, that is .8 in the pan. It all seems based on this preSUMPtion(pun intended!). Seriously now, has anyone ever checked the oil level at various RPMs? Am I the only one who loses less than a pint per oil change(3000 miles)? Isn't it better practice to manage nasty blow-by gases with PCV and new piston rings rather than more oil volume that might not reach temp or even offer much 'absorption'?
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Post by Armageddous on Jun 30, 2010 15:30:34 GMT -5
It seems the main objective of my pan is being missed, and that is to keep the fragments out of the aluminum oil pump housing. Having more oil is not only a bonus but it will help. I bet your twin turbo 3.1L probably has th drain plug positioned so that all the crud comes out with every oil change, huh? Probably magnetic too. Also, it probably has a gigantic fine mesh pickup tube, a full steel oil pump engineered for high volume at low RPM and I'm willing to bet it's been on synthetic since it rolled off the showroom floor.
I should also note that when your Justy's oil light comes on, that is NOT GOOD. The light triggers at around 3PSI at the filter, which is still a good ways away from making it to the crankshaft.
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Post by Armageddous on Jul 1, 2010 11:26:50 GMT -5
Oooh, shiny. ![](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/Armageddous/DSC00192.jpg)
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Post by justyjuggler on Jul 2, 2010 12:43:01 GMT -5
It seems the main objective of my pan is being missed, and that is to keep the fragments out of the aluminum oil pump housing. But, what evidence is there that the oil pump gets fouled from the oil supply? I mean, doesn't the housing's bore of the outer rotor show relatively little wear compared to the pump shaft bore? Consider that there may be no metal debris in the engine sump, compared to the gearbox. Also consider installing a magnetic drain plug from another gearbox; they're interchangeable, but don't expect much collection from the engine. Note that the pressure switch is mounted downstream of the filter and is measuring pressure of main gallery; this is good news! Anyways, nice work on your sump. Looks good, not amateurish. Looking forward to how much volume you've added and how the fit looks when installed...
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Post by nipper on Jul 2, 2010 17:01:26 GMT -5
"Let's be a little kinder. I wouldn't design mine the way he has and I disagree with the use of some of the nomenclature but all in all I think this is a great step in solving the Justy oil problem. And to answer your question: yes, the Justy does have an oil capacity problem even stock. A stock 1.6 litre Volkswagen Beetle had a 2.5 quart oil capacity. Why then do virtually all 1.6 litre engines today come with a 4 litre sump? Engineers know that engines use oil. They leak it, they burn it, they use it. Almost every car manual says how much oil consumption is allowable. This means that you are not expected to check your oil level every single day. With a 4 quart sump, if you run a quart low, you still have three quarts. I can testify from personal experience that if the oil level is not completely topped off, one can invoke oil starvation in a stock Justy with 155 section tires on a hard right turn (dry pavement of course)"
A few additional points. Oil is also used to help cool the pistons. With such a low capacity, the oil never gets a chance to rid itself of the heat (VW's and Corvairs did have oil coolers). Even on a healthy engine it is safe that you may use 1qt every 5000 miles depending upon your driving. Why subaru picked 7500 miles as an oil change interval is beyond me (and I am an automotive engineer). Anything one can do to add capacity is a good thing.
However, what I dont see is some sort of windage tray. On hard turns, how will you keep the oil from being airated?
I am going with the external oil filter and oil cooler myself to add capacity (I don't have a shop or garage) but otherwise it looks good. Ground clearance may be an issue. I dont see a starvation problem, but would be concenred with oil foaming.
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Post by nipper on Jul 2, 2010 17:07:03 GMT -5
Seriously now, has anyone ever checked the oil level at various RPMs? Am I the only one who loses less than a pint per oil change(3000 miles)? Isn't it better practice to manage nasty blow-by gases with PCV and new piston rings rather than more oil volume that might not reach temp or even offer much 'absorption'?
A pint every 3000 miles really is not bad at all. Oil consumption is considered excessive at 1 qt every 1500 miles. It used to be 1qt every 1000 miles, but with tighter engines (even for a late 80's car) the line has been raised.
There are three ways you "use" oil. 1- leaking. 2nd burning. 3 is evaporation. Oil is used to cool the piston's skirt and the bottom of the piston. Over time the pistons tend to run somewhat hotter, this is how you can have oil evaporate and even get some minor "blowby" (when it is actually evaporating) and not be alarmed.
If oil usage is really bad, you are going to need to hone the cylinderwalls as well as new rings, assuming you are not burning it from the guides.
This is of course all assuming the PCV system is functioining well.
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Post by nipper on Jul 2, 2010 17:08:46 GMT -5
One suggestion, you may not want an entirely flat bottom. Pans are slightly andgled towards the drain plug to help get all the oil out.
nipper
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Post by Armageddous on Jul 2, 2010 20:50:07 GMT -5
But, what evidence is there that the oil pump gets fouled from the oil supply? I mean, doesn't the housing's bore of the outer rotor show relatively little wear compared to the pump shaft bore? Once upon a time I had posted pictures of new oil pump versus old one. It was pretty clear that the condition of the oil was the problem. One suggestion, you may not want an entirely flat bottom. Pans are slightly andgled towards the drain plug to help get all the oil out. I did tilt it! Look harder! =P However, what I dont see is some sort of windage tray. On hard turns, how will you keep the oil from being airated? Well. The original idea was to add a "windage tray" or I usually call them baffles. However I got excited after bead blasting it, got it home and poured on some shiny paint. I may need to burn a plate in there then repaint. Thanks for the input everyone.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Jul 3, 2010 3:52:36 GMT -5
Well. The original idea was to add a "windage tray" or I usually call them baffles. I think those are two different things though. My understanding is that sump baffles merely keep the oil from climbing up the outer wall during hard lateral acceleration or else slows down the effect. A windage tray is a form fitting piece of sheet metal that prevents the crankshaft and the windstorm it makes inside of the crankcase from whipping up the oil in the sump and the drain-back oil coming down from the top end. The benefits of the windage tray I am told are twofold; firstly the crankshaft is not dragging and slapping oil, which would be a parasitic drag and secondly the oil in the sump will not foam up from being whipped. Note: synthetic oils do not foam but the other benefits still apply
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