Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 14:40:33 GMT -5
Posted by seattlejusty on Today at 5:48am A band-aid for a problem that needs medicine. Please explain
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Post by gearheadeh on Nov 11, 2008 15:36:40 GMT -5
Allow me: I think it would be a poor fix (band aid) to put in some flimsy little pieces of metal where new and proper wheel studs should be!.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 11, 2008 16:00:32 GMT -5
Perhaps, but I'm going to try it anyway. I've ordered the adapter washers. If it works well it is an easy solution to the problem. I will update how it goes once I have them.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 11, 2008 16:42:07 GMT -5
Perhaps, but I'm going to try it anyway. I've ordered the adapter washers. If it works well it is an easy solution to the problem. I will update how it goes once I have them. Well hold off for awhile on reporting that one. You won't know how well they work for quite some time. Remember; Justy automatics worked awesome!.... until all of them broke.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 20:32:01 GMT -5
So what is the concern about ball seat adapters?
It is a simple piece of solid metal designed to fit the taper of the ball seat and conical lug nut, and is compressed equally on both sides. They don't push the lug nut out on the stud very far, certainly not as far as a wheel spacer does. A lot of people use these on other older subarus with no problems.
The only concerns I can think of are making sure you have the correct adapter and of course seating & torquing the lug nuts properly and checking them periodically.
On the plus side it allows a person to use their stock donut or other spare if they so choose, and the ability to switch wheel types without a second set of lug nuts, i.e. a set of snow tires on stock steelies.
It also avoids any problems that may arise from re-studding your hubs. I know it is easy, but there are plenty of ways to make a mistake.
I am not trying to start an argument, but if someone knows of a legitimate concern with these adapters I would like to hear it so myself and other members can make an informed decision. I have not used them personally...yet, but I don't see why they should not be considered a viable option. Like I said before, if someone knows of a problem please state it so we can explore the issue. I am all about safety, but I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with these.
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Post by justyjon on Nov 11, 2008 22:18:15 GMT -5
So what is the concern about ball seat adapters? I am not trying to start an argument, but if someone knows of a legitimate concern with these adapters I would like to hear it so myself and other members can make an informed decision. I do have a legitimate concern, albeit in Jimm's application: Adapters will take up some of the stud length. If you want to use spacers (which I needed in the rear) you're not going to have a safe amount of threads to work with. Should you choose to install new studs(which, to me, seems like a much more satisfying and proper way of doing things) you might want to consider the use of stock length studs for the front where you won't need wheel spacers. They might otherwise be too long, no? BTW, the use of spacers really cleaned up the look and fit of the rear wheelwells. Good luck with the project.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 11, 2008 23:12:46 GMT -5
So what is the concern about ball seat adapters? A lot of people use these on other older subarus with no problems. On the plus side it allows a person to use their stock donut or other spare if they so choose, and the ability to switch wheel types without a second set of lug nuts, i.e.[sic] a set of snow tires on stock steelies. . As part of a resolution to be less argumentative, I will avoid the banter about is it right or is it wrong. I wouldn't use wobble-lug-nuts to fit 100mmPCD wheels onto a 98mmPCD F.I.A.T. and I won't use fancy washers to fasten my wheels to my car In an honest spirit though I do want to ask you to clarify something you said above; - A lot of people use these on other older subarus with no problems.
What do you mean exactly? Older Subarus used a huge 140mm PCD. The only non-standard wheels that I have ever seen anyone fit to an old Subaru are those from a Peugeot. As far as I can tell, the 4-bolt Peugeots used a conical seat on their wheels just like Subaru. So in what application would other people have used a cone-to-sphere adapter when putting any wheel to an old Subaru? Do you know for a fact that this has happened?
- On the plus side it allows a person to use their stock donut or other spare if they so choose, and the ability to switch wheel types without a second set of lug nuts, i.e.[sic] a set of snow tires on stock steelies.
You know what man, you're right and that's great but you know what else? After changing my studs to the imminently more common 12X1.5 type, I can use conical-lugnuts, spherical-lugnuts or even shank-lugnuts if I wanted. I retain all the convenience that you enjoy but get more versatility. In other words, I lose nothing and gain everything.
Anyone that read my essay closely, knows already that I urge the reader to opt for a conventional cone-seat type of wheel so as to avoid the problem in the first place. What I did is not for beginners.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 2:29:10 GMT -5
"What do you mean exactly? Older Subarus used a huge 140mm PCD. The only non-standard wheels that I have ever seen anyone fit to an old Subaru are those from a Peugeot. As far as I can tell, the 4-bolt Peugeots used a conical seat on their wheels just like Subaru."
Peugeots use conical seats on their steel wheels, but use ball seats on their alloys. This is how I originally found out about the adapters.
If I were doing this I would re-stud my hubs too. But if someone really wants their Honda or VW wheels and does not have the mechanical ability or confidence to perform this procedure it seems that the ball seat adapters may be the best way to go.
I have not heard anyone describe any danger in a properly fitted and tightened ball seat adapter. I can't see any reason why they would not work just fine if installed correctly.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 12, 2008 11:33:03 GMT -5
Justy to clarify, I'm going to try the adapters because it is the easiest thing to do not because I don't have the ability to swap out the studs. I don't see a large problem with them from an engineering standpoint either. In fact one of my favorite lug nuts is the type that has a separate (but attached) washer-seat, they are great because they don't turn on the wheels lug nut mating surface. These adapters would be similar in many ways. They also take up very little of the stud so shouldn't be a problem getting enough turns on the nut. This solution takes near zero extra effort once I have them and that is what I like about them. There are a lot of other things I could do to my Justy if I had time to burn.
There are no studs that exactly match the Justy stud but with 1.5mm thread pitch. Sure there are ones that are close and will work but is that not a compromise as well?
Having said all that I would rather change the studs to the more popular 1.5 ones but I can't help but try this simpler idea.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 12, 2008 11:39:53 GMT -5
Yes, I really do want to use this set of alloys I picked up. They just require ball seat nuts.
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Post by justyjon on Nov 12, 2008 14:48:39 GMT -5
So either option will work.
Jimm, those are some snazzy rims. Do they have the same offset as stock steelies? Looked all over the net but couldn't find any specs. Is it possible that they have a different offset which would mean you wouldn't need spacers?
Whatever it takes, I can't blame you for wanting to get those beauties on your car.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 13, 2008 12:10:11 GMT -5
Thanks! I have more info on them in the "Possible 13 wheel" thread. But yeah, I stumbled onto them locally and picked them up. They are Audi/VW wheels part # 811601025A. 13x5.5, +45 ET. Not sure why they have BMW caps. Offset is close to stock, but more importantly the backspace is within 1/8" (visually) of stock as compared with the rear trailing arm clearance between this rim and a stock rim. If anything they are closer to the rear trailing arm so I'd be a little leary of running 175 tires without a spacer. I'll know more next week. Hub size isn't quite right though. On the rear they are fine but the 4 tabs that are on the front hub hit the hub bore taper of these wheels. I'm just going to file out notches in the rim hub bore to clear the hub tabs. Just need those ball seat to conical seat adapter washers now.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 13, 2008 17:40:23 GMT -5
Thanks! I have more info on them in the "Possible 13 wheel" thread. But yeah, I stumbled onto them locally and picked them up. They are Audi/VW wheels part # 811601025A. 13x5.5, +45 ET. Not sure why they have BMW caps. Offset is close to stock, but more importantly the backspace is within 1/8" (visually) of stock as compared with the rear trailing arm clearance between this rim and a stock rim. If anything they are closer to the rear trailing arm so I'd be a little leary of running 175 tires without a spacer. I'll know more next week. Hub size isn't quite right though. On the rear they are fine but the 4 tabs that are on the front hub hit the hub bore taper of these wheels. I'm just going to file out notches in the rim hub bore to clear the hub tabs. Just need those ball seat to conical seat adapter washers now. VW wheels have a 57mm center bore (57.2mm to be exact) and the Justy needs 59 (59.2mm) I think you'll be disappointed with filing out your wheels. I guess it comes down to convenience versus safety. If you'll opt for $6 in beveled washers instead of $22 in wheel studs then it would be unrealistic to expect you to get your wheels machined I suppose.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 13, 2008 18:28:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the hub size specs.
Although I love the little Justy it is only a car. There is no safety issue here. Why would I spend a bunch of money and hassle on machining the hub bore when I can just file out the notches I need?? Sure it would be nice but when it comes down to it I could care less if they aren't hubcentric. The hub bore on these wheels almost clears as-is since it tapers down to the 57.2mm from a much larger size so it only needs clearance for the tips of the hub tabs. This is only on the front, for the rear the taper of the wheels hub bore is such that it clears the hub. Why bother making the front hubcentric when the rear can't be anyway?
For me, there is zero saftey concern with this so the convenience factor far outweighs zero.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 14, 2008 10:40:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the hub size specs. Although I love the little Justy it is only a car. There is no safety issue here. Why would I spend a bunch of money and hassle on machining the hub bore when I can just file out the notches I need?? Sure it would be nice but when it comes down to it I could care less if they aren't hubcentric. The hub bore on these wheels almost clears as-is since it tapers down to the 57.2mm from a much larger size so it only needs clearance for the tips of the hub tabs. This is only on the front, for the rear the taper of the wheels hub bore is such that it clears the hub. Why bother making the front hubcentric when the rear can't be anyway? For me, there is zero saftey concern with this so the convenience factor far outweighs zero. Jimm, first of all I want to say thank you for your post. Let me just say that I am not trying belittle you or belabor an issue. My primary concern, as always, is for the safety of my brother men... and that means the people that have to share a road with you. - There is no safety issue here.
I get it that you don't feel there is any safety issue and that some of us are making mountains of mole-hills. I happen to have a very high regard for the engineers at Subaru and I trust their judgment.
- The hub bore on these wheels almost clears as-is since it tapers down to the 57.2mm from a much larger size so it only needs clearance for the tips of the hub tabs.
I see what you mean about how if not for the shallowest couple of millimeters, the wheels wouldn't even make contact with the ears on the hubs at all so it isn't technically possible to get a really good hub-centric fit with these wheels at all. For this reason I would dismiss these wheels as a candidate in the first place and move on to another wheel option.
Will the Earth stop spinning if you do as you have outlined and roll on anyway? No, of course not. I can't say for sure what will happen to you (or the other persons on the road) but believe this: hub-centric mounting is far superior at centering the wheel to the hub center and using a lug-centric wheel on a car designed to be hub-centric, is going to tear up your bearings faster and make it harder to balance a tire. The average Justy weighing about 1800lbs and having a weight distribution of a typical front wheel drive car, probably has a weight distribution of 65/35. That puts over 1100lbs on the front wheels and somewhere around 600lbs on the rear wheels. In this case the rear wheels have to suspend the vehicle and stop the vehicle somewhat (rear brakes only account for a third of your car's braking). The front wheels on the other hand have to - Suspend
- Brake
- Propel
- Steer
- And when there's a pot-hole or sever grade change like speed bumps or train tracks, the front wheel feel the shock load the most.
There is a strong case for hubcentricity. Your studs are less likely to break, your bearings will last longer and your tires too.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 27, 2008 14:11:56 GMT -5
Missed your last post Seattle, I appreciate that it isn't personal and I don't take it that way nor does it bother me. I'm secure in my own knowledge.
For the record I agree with what you are saying, just that in practice the differences are very minor. I know these new wheels are not hubcentric so I take extra care to make sure I put them on as carefully as possible. I've been using non-hubcentric for years on several different vehicles and even racing with non-hubcentric wheels.
This is especially not a concern on a car as light as a Justy in my opinion.
As an update, I got the wheels and tires on the car last night as I received the adapter washers. I'll do more of a write-up and hopefully get a picture of the car done up and post in my other thread.
So far so good but I'll be rechecking the torque on the lug nuts to make sure nothing is moving.
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Post by justythrasher on Dec 8, 2008 2:52:58 GMT -5
12" bridgestone b700's are easy to get and cheap with awesome grip due to med/soft compound, like I always say "if it aint broke,don't fix it.....or you'll break it. or there are roadstones that are 12" also 12" goodyear rally tyres
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Post by underdog on Dec 12, 2008 21:40:03 GMT -5
I found a hancook 145r13 to stud and run in the winter... they clear with a 2" lower no prob
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