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Post by eporter123 on Nov 9, 2008 12:38:26 GMT -5
My tires are 175/70 R13 Pirelli Cinturato P3000s. On my 91 Justy they rubbed the inner wheelwell and trailing arm on hard corners. I used the BFH on the inner wheelwell sheet metal. I should clarify that I thought about bending the trailing arm, then realized that was a bad idea!
Thus the spacers.
I also have a new set of springs for the rear that I've been meaning to install for months now.
So, depending on the true width of your tires, condition of your suspension, and the tilt of the earths axis, your experiences may vary!
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Post by justyjon on Nov 9, 2008 13:55:30 GMT -5
Well, my fingers are crossed. I'll know in 24 hours. Speaking of suspension, do you guys find yours to be really stiff? No one can find any faults in mine. Push down hard on the car at all four corners and it rebounds right back up with no bounce etc. Handles pretty well save for the typical body roll. Thing is though, any little bump or decent size crack in the road is pretty much a little whack to the kidneys. Anyone else? lol. Or should I consider new struts, shocks and maybe springs? Couldn't hurt I suppose but they're pretty pricey, all told. One thing I'm aware of are the bushings in the differential cross member mounting piece need replacing. Big thank you to Badshah for these parts manual images: Edit: This is going off track from wheel/tire sizing but faulty suspensions will affect tire rubbing so forgive me.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 9, 2008 20:46:35 GMT -5
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Post by justyjon on Nov 10, 2008 15:25:51 GMT -5
As it turns out I didn't have to look for any rough roads to find out if they rub. The right rear rubs on the mudflap almost all the time! lol. It does, however, look pretty kick ass with the big wheels filling the space all the way around the arch. Fronts don't rub at all, atleast! Time to bust out a hammer and other assorted tools. I might try the spacers but I don't think they're rubbing on the insides. We'll see. Pretty tight! Tank like appearance, I love it:
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Post by justyjon on Nov 10, 2008 17:39:18 GMT -5
Success! Well, just a few tips: - DO NOT bother with ANYTHING larger than a 175/70R13 tire/wheel combo! Atleast not on a Gen1. Or, go ahead and give yourself a ton of headache. Good luck.
- I did use the 1/4" wheel spacers on the rear. They eliminated any chance of inner rubbing. One note about the spacers: my studs appear to have been replaced. They all shiny and new looking. Perhaps they are a little longer than stock which gave me plenty of threads to work with? Be careful.
- I loaded the car with lots of weight to help figure out where it's rubbing. I had in mine, 8 steel wheels, 7 tires and a full tank of gas.
I did manage to make it work though. Problem is, I had to shave so much of the right rear mudflap that it's now only a 'half flap'(see image) . Not good but I had to say goodbye to 12" tires. Also had to do a bit of shaving on the bottom front of the plastic trim piece. I think I'll screw in a thin piece of floor mat or something, to close up that mad exposure of bottom rear quarter panel. Idid notice a slight loss in acceleration but overall it rolls along pretty well. Definitely handles the twisties better! Such meaty tires! I'm stoked! Thanks for all the tips! Hope my posts helped as much as you guys helped me. On a final note in reference to the title of this thread. FORGET 15", 16" and 17" wheels!!! lol. 14" maaaaybe but even then, not without mods. The set up I have now looks huge anyway.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 10, 2008 18:37:28 GMT -5
Looks great!
I notice that your rear bumper appears to be on a bit of an angle, possibly tilting the mud flap in towards your tire?? A bit late now but just thought I'd mention it. The rubbing of the rear trailing arm would be worse-case when the suspension is in full droop. I would think that if it didn't rub when you have it jacked up you should be ok.
Last Friday I received my new set of Pirelli Winter Carving tires, just have to get them mounted on the wheels. I'll try to post a picture of the finished product when it's done. They are 155-70-13. Can't wait to try out real tires in the snow this winter. I used worn winters the first year and new all seasons last year, both were impressive so I can only imagine how this will be.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 10, 2008 18:44:18 GMT -5
When you were looking at your shiny lug studs did you happen to notice how hard/easy it might be to replace them? Or does anyone else know the answer to that question?
My new wheels should use a ball/radius seat lug nut and one way to fix that would be to change the studs to a 12mmx1.5mm thread from the 1.25mm original to be able to use radius seat nuts. I looked up a few studs that should do the trick if it isn't too much work to change them.
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Post by justyjon on Nov 10, 2008 18:55:25 GMT -5
Hmm, I see what you mean about the bumper. I'll have to take a look at that right away.
Couldn't tell ya about the studs. I'd assume the splined ends would be rusted into the drum pretty solid. WD40, a hammer and a whole lot of patience? Maybe use a press on them? What do others think?
Update:
Yep. I straightened out the bumper a bit with self tapping screws. Looks better. Would have rubbed anyway. Also grinded down that lower bit of quarter panel (in the last image) that looks like a serrated blade just waiting to slice away at the tire. All good now, very very little rubbing only on the biggest bumps. Even with some weight in the car.
Had it up on the jack again. Checked the trailing arm clearance with the suspension fully dropped and there is a 1/4" clearance between the tire and arm, thanks to the spacer. *Hopefully* officially done!
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 10, 2008 19:25:47 GMT -5
Ah, I guess they are part of the brake drum on a Justy. They are probably included with new drums. Might be worth a shot. I'll let you know if I go the route of new studs. Thanks!
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Post by Armageddous on Nov 10, 2008 23:13:48 GMT -5
The studs pound out no problem. You need to make sure your new studs have the same knurl pattern and diameter as the old ones. You'll need to remove the front hub and rear drums to swap the wheel studs. -Terry
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89
got Mud? Ice? Snow?
Posts: 398
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Post by 89 on Nov 11, 2008 0:26:43 GMT -5
JJ, That full car pic looks d@mn fine! Proper tasty upgrade. Have fun with that good thing,
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 11, 2008 0:28:39 GMT -5
OK so many things. - #1, congrats on your new tires, they look great! And yes 14's and 15's can be done. Remember it isn't all about the wheel, the overall height of the tire itself is half of the puzzle. Although you have found out already that the slight weight increase is noticeable, imagine what heavy 14's or 15's would feel like
- OK so droop makes no difference here. The trailing arm is fastened to the spindle, period. It's always the same distance.
- The studs come out pretty easily. On the front hubs it helps to have the hub supported on two blocks of wood and a swift, square blow with a ball-peen hammer works well. *do not use a claw hammer!*
It is even easier to remove the studs from the drums. Just put 'em flat on the floor and whack, hammer takes them out. Believe me, the problem isn't getting them out but rather getting the new ones to go in 'nice' and seat neatly. I usually just get them poking through and mount the hub/drum onto a spare wheel and use my impact wrench to progressively draw them through. BzzzZAAAT BzzzZAAAT BzzzZAAAT
- As far as replacement studs go, I think I wrote a whole article on this....lemme see if I can find it.
So yeah, you definitely need to think twice before using any VW or Honda wheels because their need for ball-seat lug-nuts. It is true that you cannot find ball-seat lugnuts in a 12X1.25 size so you have to swap wheel studs for a common 12X1.5 and use Honda/Acura type lug-nuts. The knurl (splined portion) doesn't have to match the hub or the drum and probably won't. There isn't an issue with the studs twisting once in situ. It just needs to be a tight fit.
Where'd I put that essay.......... Hi man, thanks for your patience, I just got in. OK so let me first say this; if you haven't already committed to VW/Honda wheels, let me persuade you to consider something from a Nissan, Mazda, Ford, Toyota or aftermarket instead. If nothing else for the simple reason that you won't have to change your wheel studs! Here's the deal with mine: I had already gotten myself buried before I knew what all was involved. See below As you can see, I put a lot of work into these wheels and I really do like them a lot. I sandblasted them down from rusty to bare metal and then put three coats of black and ten coats of white onto these wheels and that was after paying a machine shop to bore the centers out large enough to fit my hubs (had to have them do it twice...bastards) So anyway, these wheels are VW and most German cars have wheels with ball seats. These are very different from the normal 60-degree conical or "cone-seat" that other cars have. This picture below is my stock lugnut next to the Honda lugnut OK so here's the story. I found out after I had put some work into these wheels, that the seats weren't compatible with my conical nuts. OK I need spherical (ball seat) nuts. No problem because they make those aftermarket for Porsche, Mercedes etc. except that there WAS a problem. Nissans and Subarus have different threads than everybody else. Most cars wheel studs are 12X1.5 That means 12mm stud with a 1.5mm gap between each thread. Guess what Nissan and Subaru use...?....12X1.25! The threads on the Subaru studs are finer. OK so now all I need is a ballseat lugnut in a 12X1.25 WRONG because they don't exist! I looked high, I looked low, they don't exist. OK so now what? Well I did months of research and I found that I could remove my hubs, pound out the wheel studs and replace them with another type stud. Not bigger per se, just different. Hondas come stock with ball seat lugnuts and they're cheap, so that's what I'm using. Just need studs in a 12X1.5 that'll fit my hubs. OK so there's a few measurements you need to know: I dunno how well this picture turned out but on the left is my stock Justy stud and on the right is an aftermarket stud that I will be using. So the least critical dimension is the length. The Justy studs are very short so most others will be long enough. The next thing is the flange at the bottom which for some stupid reason they call a shoulder. I think stock Justy is 6.5mm thick and you don't want too thick because it could prevent the hub from bolting snug against the rotor. That shoulder has to fit between the back of the hub and the front of the rotor, so that's how much room you have to work with. Now the last dimension is the most critical and that is the knurl. The knurl is the splined bit that gets pounded into the hub. Jere is a picture of the measurement on my stock Justy stud and here is the other stud OK so the difference here is 0.15mm. That's only .006" ! This is a good thing too because you don't want them to be much different. Too big and they won't fit into your hubs. Too small and they'll wobble in the hub and the studs break, your wheels comes off and grandma dies in a fireball that used to be your Justy. I don't know if you have ever removed or installed wheel studs before but it's kind of like getting both your arms tattooed: YOu get your left arm inked, no big deal, man. You go back a week later to do your right arm and you're in tears from the pain. Sometimes studs come out easy and sometimes they won't f**king budge. Another caveat is getting the hubs and rotors separated. There's four bolts on the backside holding them together so you can't unbolt 'em while they're on the car. So if they're off of the car how do you untorque them? Well that's up to you. Personally, I use an impact wrench and jolt them off no problem. You do it however you want. To get the studs out I usually keep the hub and rotor TOGETHER, set them on the floor studs facing up and with one good whack of a ball-peen hammer, knock each one out. Keep in mind that they won't come all the way out at this point because the rotor is still bolted on and blocking their exit. If you remove the rotor first you won't be able to hold or balance the hub when you whack it with a hammer. Getting the new studs in can be done by carefully mounting a loose hub and wheel together with the new studs and tightening down the lugnuts incrementally in a criss-cross pattern. God I hope that last part makes sense because I don't know how else to explain it without making a youtube out of it. This is a trial fit before I painted the wheels As you can see above, the wheels come all the way out to the edge of the fender in the front (awesome!) and almost as far out in the rear. Believe it or not, the rear is actually what gives the most problems in terms of clearance. Here's a rear view showing how close the wheel comes to the strut body Remember the tires stick out a little bit beyond the edge of the rim (that is unless you're doing that stretched crap all the Import mags are teaching kids to do. Mounting silly 195s on 7-inch wide wheels. f**k that) Here's the biggest problem. This is under the car, on the passenger's side (USA) looking up and rearward laying down on my back. See how close the rim comes to the trailing arm. [/img]http://img4.glowfoto.com/images/2007/07/24-2308387305M.jpg Keep in mind, the 12" Justy wheels are 4.5" wide, the 13" Justy wheels are 5" wide and these VW 13's are 5.5" wide. I can't remember if it was 35mm or 38mm but the offset was either 35 or 38mm. If my tires rub on the trailing arms, I'll have to use spacers to push the wheels further out. Now there is one last thing in the rear and that is what limits how tall a tire you can use. The axle is not perfectly centered in the wheel well (most cars are not!). The front of the wheel is closer to the forward side of the wheel opening than in the rear. The front of the car is to the right in this photo. The tire comes close to rubbing the front (right) side A stock Justy 12" wheel & tire are about 21.2" tall overall. On my recommendation my friend just put 175/70R13s on his Justy and they're about as tall as you can fit without rubbing. 175/70R13 = 22.7" tall. I doubt a 23" tires could fit. People talk big about 300 horsepower cars and make all kinds of ill advised "improvements" but then something breaks either because that's what cars do or because that's what people DO TO their cars and then they just throw the car away and it winds up in a junkyard for me to pick at for spare parts. Please take time to consider every detail. Think about safety first, ALWAYS. Remember, it isn't just YOUR safety, it is THE OTHER PERSON's SAFETY too! Don't crash into me! Good luck with your wheels.
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89
got Mud? Ice? Snow?
Posts: 398
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Post by 89 on Nov 11, 2008 0:58:53 GMT -5
10 coats of white paint AND a rebored center!?!? I never saw that thread before! Sick stuff! Good sick. I think. Then again I witnessed a guy quit automobile shenanigans altogether when he went on antidepressants! Mildly related to wheel weight... I am working on a(nother) (whispering b/c the wife is nearby ) JUSTY project, so (for a number of reasons) wound up partially deflating a couple of 13" stock JUSTY steelies and mailing them to project 2s location upstate. The scale at the post office weighed each of them in at 30lbs give or take a couple ounces. You could probably take off another few ounces for the carboard and bubble wrap. 30 pounds seems pretty heavy for a a lil 13, eh? Good Night Guys,
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 11, 2008 1:03:01 GMT -5
10 coats of white paint AND a rebored center!?!? I never saw that thread before! Sick stuff! Good sick. I think. Then again I witnessed a guy quit automobile shenanigans when he went on antidepressants! Mildly related to wheel weight... I am working on a(nother) (whispering b/c the wife is nearby ) JUSTY project, so (for a number of reasons) wound up partially deflating a couple of 13" stock JUSTY steelies and mailing them to project 2s location upstate. The scale at the post office weighed each of them in at 30lbs give or take a couple ounces. You could probably take off another few ounces for the carboard and bubble wrap. 30 pounds seems pretty heavy for a a lil 13, eh? Good Night Guys, You couldn't have seen it because it wasn't a thread It was a private e-mail. Some people will be shocked but I actually take Justys apart and put them back together I just don't show off all my cool pix publicly. But, when people PM me for help, I always share every bit of info I have... that is until they say something racist to me [you know who you are]. Whelp, better get back to sorting my new work shop so I can blast more wheels! ;D
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Post by justyjon on Nov 11, 2008 1:04:06 GMT -5
JJ, That full car pic looks d@mn fine! Proper tasty upgrade. Have fun with that good thing, Thanks man, I love it! And SJ, dude. Fantastic post! Full of useful information. Jimm's turn to get busy based on that. BTW, those V-dub wheels look killer nice! Are they currently installed? And: BzzzZAAAT BzzzZAAAT BzzzZAAAT! haha! Also a perfect description of the sound I had to endure for 10 miles on my way home from the tire shop. Just add a little 'GRRRRrrrrrrrr'....The dude that mounted them handed me the keys and said "They are rubbing".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 2:40:45 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone refer to ball seat adapters for the Honda/VW wheels. They are basically shaped washers that go in between the lug nut and wheel. I think the local import parts shop here sells them for ~$6.00 for a pack of 8. So for ~$12.00 you can put ball seat wheels on the stock Justy lugs with very little effort. Just a thought.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Nov 11, 2008 8:48:53 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone refer to ball seat adapters for the Honda/VW wheels. They are basically shaped washers that go in between the lug nut and wheel. I think the local import parts shop here sells them for ~$6.00 for a pack of 8. So for ~$12.00 you can put ball seat wheels on the stock Justy lugs with very little effort. Just a thought. A band-aid for a problem that needs medicine.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 11, 2008 11:56:19 GMT -5
Very nice write-up Seattle! I scoured the Dorman online catalog for all the 12mmx1.5mm studs with close to the same knurl diameter as the stock Justy stud. www.dormanproducts.com/cgi-bin/vm91corp30r/item-dtl.w?sid=dEdldjKkabcDedjb008382338892503864&item=610-322&icrid=&clt=hwrap1&vsrch_str=serrated%20stud,%20knurl%2014&vsrch_brand=ALL&vsrch_cat=ALL&st_amount=0&end_amount=999999999.99&start=30&vfrom=&prev=yes&vnext=yes&category_list=:0 Justy Stud specs:Part number: 610-322 or 98310 Type: serrated stud Thread: M12-1.25 Knurl Diameter: 14.27mm Length: 30.5mm Shoulder: 6mm Based on that I could use a bunch of different ones, but the best candidates would be: 610-238 14.22mm knurl, 37.5mm length, 11mm shoulder 610-244 14.22mm knurl, 37mm length, 8mm shoulder 610-266 14.20mm knurl, 40mm length, 8mm shoulder I'll try for the 610-244 ones as the length is the closest and about the right extra length if one were to add a 1/4" spacer.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 11, 2008 11:59:56 GMT -5
Hey ferox, I've never seen or even heard of those ball seat adapters. Interesting, but nothing comes up in a search so far.
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jimm
1993 GL
Posts: 63
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Post by jimm on Nov 11, 2008 12:55:13 GMT -5
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