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Post by dmnordin on Mar 18, 2010 13:28:54 GMT -5
Bad News. When I did my head gasket this past weekend, the oil supply to my head apparently was plugged. This morning my Justy quit on me, & I had to be towed home from work ($150 tow).
I pulled the valve cover, and my head is toast after driving it about 300 miles without oil.
I found one locally for $45 - I hope it's OK, because the next one I found locally is $145. The machine shop said they would clean it & test it for free. I am planning on doing more Siingh grooves in whatever head I put in.
Doug
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 18, 2010 16:35:18 GMT -5
Doug, I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune. Keep that Justy alive! Where exactly are you located, again?
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 18, 2010 17:27:38 GMT -5
Yesterday I changed out my head gasket again, with 2 goals in mind; fix the small leak from the oil supply to the head, and to do some Siingh Grooves. ... . . One silver lining is that I had used a few dabs of black silicone to hold the gasket in place, and it was secure by the time I was putting things together again today. Also, to make sure the oil supply leak would go away, I removed the very thin rubber oval shaped O-ring from the head gasket, and used the silicone to cure a thicker one in place. THE LEAK IS FIXED !!! WOOHOO!!! ..... ... .Doug Bad News. When I did my head gasket this past weekend, the oil supply to my head apparently was plugged. This morning my Justy quit on me, & I had to be towed home from work ($150 tow). I pulled the valve cover, and my head is toast after driving it about 300 miles without oil. Doug Doug, do you think that the "cured" silicone seal you created caused this? Have your machine shop check the head for warpage. I suspect that the oil-leaking from the head gasket (that you and **redmavis12** both mentioned recently) is really a sign of a warped head. -RRJ
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Post by madmatt on Mar 18, 2010 18:05:03 GMT -5
Hey guys,
Been really busy last week or so and just checked in to see lots of missed excitement and some disappointment.
Moe, was you test in 5th? and what size of tires? I know if anything this will be a pretty crude test, but we should be able to work backwards and get some sort of torque curve, or more over a few points with some averages (if my terrible math/physics skills hold up).
Doug that sucks... did you find the blockage? As RRJ mentioned I hope that your silicone didn't dislodge and find it's way up into the head and block the port.
Build on...
I'll try to look at those numbers and see if I can remember M*A=F and how that meets up to wheel torque, multiply that by the gear reduction, don't forget the final drive, oh boy this is getting confusing already...
Matt
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 18, 2010 18:57:31 GMT -5
Well, turns out the $45 head was cracked - I found out when I called back after they pulled it. The $145 head is about an hour away, and he can't pull it until Monday, which is OK, really, since I need to work this weekend to make up for taking today off. We'll see if it's good - won't know for sure until after the machine shop cleans it up. That would also go for any of the $250 + $35 shipping heads that are available through the local wrecking yard's locating services. So, it will take a little while to get this back together. Does anyone here have a non-cracked, fuel injected head for sale?
I think that is probably what happened - I wasn't careful enough and some cured silicone ended up plugging the little oil supply hole in the head bolt hole. I sure won't be using silicone on a head gasket ever again - expensive lesson.
Oh yeah, I'm in Utah, about 45 minutes South of Salt Lake City.
The head that I just ruined was totally redone at the machine shop, including having it shaved because it was warped when I brought it to them originally. When I had the head off last weekend, I checked the block with a straight edge, and it looks like it dips very, very slightly in the middle from front to back of engine.
I just took things apart enough today to find out what was wrong - it will be interesting to see what's what when I get to taking the head off.
The thing that I'm bummed about the most is that I'm left with a tough time making my commute to work on the schedule I need to keep. My motorcycle has a bad oil leak that will require a day to fix - yay, I don't have much time to do all of this mechanicing. I do have a couple of cars different people have offered to lend to me, which I'm sure I'll be taking advantage of their offers, amidst concerns of putting many miles on their cars & worrying about hitting a deer or something.
Well, I hope you don't mind me venting a bit of my frustrations.
Doug
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 18, 2010 20:21:37 GMT -5
I sure won't be using silicone on a head gasket ever again - expensive lesson. Doug Thank you for sharing all of this Doug. This is a very, very important lesson for all of us to learn with you as I know a lot of people try to save a dollar by using RTVs and other sealants in place of actual gaskets and some have mentioned using them with their gaskets. Let us all spend the extra $20 and get the correct gasket!
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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 18, 2010 21:05:51 GMT -5
oh boy this is getting confusing already... It's simpler if we just want to compare one modified justy to another stock justy. We know moemoney's 2wd revs around 10% lower than my 4wd at any given speed and gear. We also know that moemoney's 155/80/12 tires are near 4% smaller diameter than mine. We can balance this difference by having me compare a test from say, 33 to 43, 53 and 63. If you follow... The weight difference is easier to balance. I managed a single run with a bone stock combustion chamber in a 4wd 5spd, FI with 175/70/13's. 30mph to 60mph, 6sec(40), 11(50), 18(60). That's better than moemoney's fastest run, but I had my wife reading the clock and she seemed to have stopped counting while she recorded the numbers!! More trials, with slight corrections will come... Thanks moemoney, BTW, for the test numbers. We'll need some lower gear runs if we want to compare the upper(4-6K) RPM band.
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 19, 2010 13:56:38 GMT -5
SeattleJusty - a little clarification - I did have the correct Justy head gasket - all 3 times. The first two times I had an oil leak from the correct head gasket because the oval O-ring in it that seals up the oil supply to the head was too thin.
As I said in an earlier post, I think my block's deck isn't truly flat. To remedy this, I took out the too thin, rubber, oval O-ring from the Justy head gasket and swapped it for a round O ring that was a little thicker. The problem comes when I used silicone to hold the thicker O-ring in place until I could install the head - I was concerned that the round O-ring would pop out of the oval hole in the Justy head gasket before the head could hold it in place.
Doug
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 19, 2010 16:49:19 GMT -5
Doug, thank you for the clarification. Your earlier post seemed to infer that you pulled the stock o-ring and replaced it with RTV. I was also leaning my earlier question toward silicone bits getting dislodged and blocking/restricting bearing oil supply to the head. If I think about the sealing points that could allow unfiltered contaminants into the pressurized oil supply, the head gasket is one of the only places this can happen. I too will take some gaskets (like oil-pan, front engine cover, valve cover, intake) and put a very thin layer of RTV to hold said gasket in place. I was always told not to apply RTV to a head gasket and never really knew quite why.
On your suspicion of the iron-cast block having a warped deck, do you have a fairly good straight edge, or good way of inspecting for this when you get the failed head pulled back off? I had not considered a warped block, interested to see what you find.
-RRJ
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 19, 2010 18:18:42 GMT -5
This past weekend when I did the head gasket & Siingh Grooves, I checked the decking with a metal drafting ruler, and it looked like it was warped slightly with a depression lengthwise between the front & rear of the engine.
Doug
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 21, 2010 15:06:04 GMT -5
Yesterday I went to a wrecking yard about 40 minutes away & pulled a fuel injected head from a 91 Justy (ECVT) that was intact. They couldn't get to pulling the head until next wee. I also picked up a bunch of other parts; radiator, ignition coil, valve cover, throttle body, fuel rail w/injectors, exhaust manifold cover, rear hatch shocks, and throttle cable. This Justy had AC in it - the only things that had been pulled before I got there were the headlights & front turn signals. The rear lights looked super, but I have a spare set. I was jazzed to find one with everything on it - I wish it were mine to totally strip.
Doug
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 28, 2010 17:33:59 GMT -5
Here are some pictures. First off, notice the carbon deposit coloring & patterns from before the Siingh Grooves & after. There are also pictures of the groove prep & after they were cut on the cleaned head. The coloring around the squish areas are gold after running the head with the Siingh grooves, with the dark carbon deposits concentrated in the middle/spark plug area of the cylinder area of the head. all of the cylinders were pretty consistent. I'm not sure what the gold coloring means - any ideas? I put one picture of the stock oval o-ring from the second head gasket that leaked, and a picture of the o-ring I put in. After pulling the head yesterday, what happened is the o-ring deformed & was squished inward from the sealer, and the o-ring filled & closed off the channel in the head that supplies the head with oil. The cam is totally siezed in the head. The new head from the wrecking yard last week looks good - I pulled the valves from this head so they can be used in the new/used head since they are new. They are going to shave it, as well. Doug
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 29, 2010 15:05:51 GMT -5
Doug, sorry for your misfortune. Great documentation! Very aggressive on your grooves! I only put one per cylinder, not quit as wide or deep. You have the advantage of shaving your head. What did your spark plugs look like?
2537 miles on my engine, no oil or coolant leaks so far. Spark plugs are still white in the center, but I have a gold colored deposit on the base of the threaded part exposed to the combustion chamber. I use Lucas injector cleaner and top cylinder lube in my fuel. Got the 2 for 1 special at Autozone. Have put 1 per fill up. Was hoping it would help with seating my rings.
I live in Meridian, Mississippi, and there are no dyno shops close by. Birmingham is the closest place I could locate, by appointment only ... more than $100. Right now I am still in a recession!
Doug, I wish you the best on getting it back together! I drove my Father's 1980 Mercedes diesel to get arround. It got arround 25-27mpg. Diesel is too high here. I can now go a lot farther for way less money! Good luck!
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Post by dmnordin on Apr 9, 2010 8:51:12 GMT -5
This has ended up costing $500-$600. Unfortunate? - definitely, Yes, but, it's my own darn fault, since I listened to some bad advice. I have to look at it as a good lesson learned in the school of hard knocks. I got the new, machined head (shaved, valve job) in last weekend with a few improvements while the head was out (remote oil filter/cooler, 80 amp alternator, and, of course, Siingh Grooves). I think the head I ruined wasn't as good of a head as this one. The Justy runs so much better! very torquey, SMOOTH, torquey, and did I say SMOOTH? No anemic feeling power-wise whatsoever- under all driving conditions driven this week. My head gasket oil leak is fixed. I checked that the head is getting good oil flow before I put on the valve cover by cranking the engine & watching the oil ooze out around the cam, etc. One small thing - my ground strap is now connected to the head, instead of the exhaust manifold - I didn't know it went there, since when I got this Justy, it was partially dis-assembled, and I saw where it was supposed to be attached from the Justy at the wrecking yard. I think the spark plugs probably have a better ground because of this. My grooves are like what I did on the other head, only I took more time and was more careful doing them. My spark plugs looked like things were running lean before maybe. I need to check them this weekend. Here are some pictures; You can see how the silicone hydrolic-ed the O-ring, closing off oil supply to the head; The new, Thicker O-ring compared to what comes in the head gasket; The new head marked for Siingh Groove Cutting; Siingh Grooves Rough Cut in; Grooves cleaned up; Putting Everything back together; Fitting for Water Temp Gauge; Doug
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Post by moemoney313 on Apr 9, 2010 14:54:37 GMT -5
WOW!!! Congrats Doug! On the last picture, what is that connected inline on your heater hose? Again, awesome job!
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Post by dmnordin on Apr 9, 2010 15:08:17 GMT -5
Thanks,
It's a Fitting for my Water Temp Gauge sensor. It turns out, my water temp gauge I used in my pillar mount that you see the sensor for here, is bad, so I'll be replacing it tomorrow. I like to see what the temp is instead of just seeing the dummy gauge in the dash.
Doug
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Post by justyjuggler on Apr 27, 2010 19:35:36 GMT -5
Doug,
How are those new grooves workin' out?
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Post by moemoney313 on Jun 20, 2010 21:45:09 GMT -5
First, I want to thank Doug for his major contribution to this post. Hope all is well! As for my justy, we just hit 84965 on the odometer, over 5000 miles on this engine and no major problems to report. Still running very smooth.
Change the oil to Super Tech (valvoline synthetic) 5W30 motor oil from Walmart. I also flushed the cooling system and topped up with new 50/50 mix glycol. Just came back from a 452 mile trip. My engine loves this stuff.
No leaks and my engine is quieter. Valve adjustment is right on!
Average 42mpg at 70mph with the windows down (AC not working). This was measured at fill up.
Tried to advance timing, but lost power. The engine does not like a lot of advance. It does not ping, but the power is not there. I am running stock settings.
Unless something happens, this will probably be my last message on this post. Will run this oil for 3000 miles, watching very carefully, before changing it and installing the prelube system I brought for it. I will open a new post for that. Thanks to all who contributed to this post and I wish all well. Keep those Justys running.
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Post by dmnordin on Jun 27, 2010 22:48:15 GMT -5
I'm Finally taking time to give you guys an update.
The new head is awesome - much better than the old one that had overheated, even with it having been re-built.
I've been commuting alone for a while now, and the Trusty Justy runs like a top! Smooth as ever, crawls out of my work parking garage at an idle, and also has good power most everywhere in the RPM range, but better in a couple of different rpm bands. I think the grooves help out in several different areas.
I get 32-34 mpg consistently, which I'm a little disappointed about, but not complaining too loudly.
There are two long upgrades on my commute to work. Driving alone helps getting up these. I wouldn't mind more power up these grades, but I've found that I can keep my speed up (65-70mph) in 4th gear at 4500 rpms. I need to approach it like a Semi truck, though - hit the hill at speed and then maintain it. If I were to start out in the middle of one of these grades, I wouldn't be able to get my speed up there, and I would only do 50-55mph with lower RPMs.
So, I think the grooves help out in several different areas, but the Justy still has a 3 cyl., 1200cc engine, and I can't expect it to perform like a performance car - a turbo or other forced air induction would help out, but I'm not going to go there - time, money, and headache.
Getting into the hot, summer time, so I'm working on rebuilding my '83 Yamaha Venture (1200cc engine) motorcycle now.
Doug
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Post by madfaber on Aug 17, 2010 11:35:48 GMT -5
All these grooves are doing is raising the displacment right? I mean in essense All your doing is making the combution chamber slightly bigger, so iam not sure what all this contraversy is about, more displacment = more power. making a 1200cc into maybe a 1230-1250 cc, maybe. So yeah its gunna be a little more but not alot, and chances are you are not raising the displacment evenenly across the the 3 cyl ,you kinda just cuting by eye so now you have more displacment but less balance so you are basicaly canceling them out. This would make sense since half the people who do this say there is little to no difference. seems like calling it "Singh Grooves" is giving a fancy name to a fairly common practice among anyone who has ever built a engine , they call it " boring over" , its been being done for about 80 years now. You raise the displacmentby increasing the diameter (or circumference however you wana look at it) of each cylinder.
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