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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 6, 2010 16:22:07 GMT -5
Moemoney313,
I am most interested in your mod and have a few questions, if you get a chance someday...
-Is your Justy 2wd or AWD(4wd)? I can't tell for sure with the AC components. -On flat ground, with a clock or stopwatch, can you tell me how long(or how fast!) it takes for you(without passengers) to accelerate from say, 30mph to 60mph, all the time in 5th gear?
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 10, 2010 7:28:18 GMT -5
Moemoney313, I am most interested in your mod and have a few questions, if you get a chance someday... -Is your Justy 2wd or AWD(4wd)? I can't tell for sure with the AC components. -On flat ground, with a clock or stopwatch, can you tell me how long(or how fast!) it takes for you(without passengers) to accelerate from say, 30mph to 60mph, all the time in 5th gear? I wouldn't recommend accelerating from 30MPH in 5th gear. That's very hard on your bearings and loose bearings is what leads to low oil pressure in our Justys. Justys like RPM and besides that when you flog (or lug) your Justy at or below 2000 RPM you're really actually getting bad fuel consumption. No point in it. Also, wide throttle angles are best avoided at lower engine speeds too. Flooring it at lower engine speeds can foul spark plugs and cause rapid accumulation of carbon build up in the combustion chambers.
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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 11, 2010 22:34:08 GMT -5
Thanks for your unsolicited comments seattlejusty, but really this is a test, not a driving style. Besides, I'll stick with the advice from my Justy's Owner's Manual, Page 3-7: "The safe engine speed for normal driving and best engine efficiency is between 1,500 rpm and the red zone." 30mph is above 1,500 rpm, but like a buddy once told me, "There's tight, then there's tight ass!"
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 12, 2010 1:38:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your unsolicited comments seattlejusty, but really this is a test, not a driving style. Besides, I'll stick with the advice from my Justy's Owner's Manual, Page 3-7: "The safe engine speed for normal driving and best engine efficiency is between 1,500 rpm and the red zone." 30mph is above 1,500 rpm, but like a buddy once told me, "There's tight, then there's tight ass!" - "Thanks for your unsolicited comments"
Sure thing. That's why it's called a forum; anybody can jump in.
- "The safe engine speed for normal driving and best engine efficiency is between 1,500 rpm and the red zone"
Yup. Normal driving as in cruising, not "how fast it takes for you to accelerate from say, 30mph to 60mph, all the time in 5th gear?"
- "There's tight, then there's tight ass"
Tight? Tight like going through three engines but not spending $80 dyno test to verify claims of a braodened torque curve? I'm just asking a question.
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Post by Raw Justyce! on Mar 12, 2010 3:04:14 GMT -5
Posting on a public FORUM (Noun: an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.) is for the discussion of ideas. By posting here you're soliciting criticism, praise, and other points of view.
I'm trying to avoid these stupid forum fights that have been plaguing this board lately, but 1. SJ has been trimming every extra word out off his comments to try to keep his boots of other's toes, and it seems the pack has pounced on him as if it were a sign of weakness. 2. Excessive acceleration is not "normal driving" in my opinion.
If you'd like to venture outside of the "norm" as far as this subject please at least provide us with some data, or a comparison between conventional driving and the method in question.
P.S.
To be clear: I'm not directing this at you Moe.
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 12, 2010 10:56:56 GMT -5
Guys, I am trying to come up with a way to validate what I feel is more than an improvement from a new engine. I understand how both camps feel and I did not mean to cause this ruckus! I just wanted to share something I thought was good with my fellow Justy owners! Help me to prove or disprove this!
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Post by madmatt on Mar 12, 2010 14:00:47 GMT -5
Moe,
I think the 30k/hr to 90 km/hr 3rd gear pull would be a good choice. If you do that, time it accurately and get distance traveled we could work out approximate horsepower and torque.
Run the car with you, a friend, and a full tank of fuel and we can get weight of the car. With a bit of math we can derive force required, and subsequently get HP and torque numbers by working backwards. Do a running start from a cruise at 30km/hr, hit the gas the stop watch and the trip meter at the same time. Run up to 90km/h, record length of time to the second, distance to as best 10m as you can (50 meters is probably good).
I understand SJ's skepticism completely, there are a lot "brown's gas" like things out there that are based on fuzzy science. However, I'm a believer that the changes to the flame front and the resulting better burn rate can make a big difference in SOME engines. I thinking seriously about trying it out on a volvo head, as they are cheap, and the 2 valved volvo head has a big squish area. I've read lots of positive feedback with that head being Singh grooved. With the smaller squish area in the Justy head (due to the 3 valve design) I would guess you would get some effect, but not as much as in an older head design.
The proof is in the pudding though, and while I'm a believer, if you want to time 3 or 4 third gear pulls on flat ground, I'll do the math.
Let us know if you have a 2 door or a 4 door, and if 4wd, and let's get someone with a similar car to do the same pull. It won't be Macintosh to Macintosh, but it won't be Bananas to grapefruit either.
Matt
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 12, 2010 15:39:17 GMT -5
Guys, I am trying to come up with a way to validate what I feel is more than an improvement from a new engine. I understand how both camps feel and I did not mean to cause this ruckus! I just wanted to share something I thought was good with my fellow Justy owners! Help me to prove or disprove this! After reading dozens of testimonials about this (and every dyno link attached to Somender's site), I find people who have spent a great deal of time and effort to try to support this mod. The problem is that nobody can show any conclusive evidence. In fact most either don't post the A vs. B results, or they get happy engine building and change multiple things on the test engine. The few people who show multiple dyno runs come up with repeatability error (noise) that is greater than the perceived signal. Some even made excuses to why they did not get conclusive results, and then go on to "cleanse" the repeatability errors from the data to fit their claims of minor gain (under this or that specific condition). One of the most interesting testimonials came from this guy's write up: www.herningg.com/singh/ The analysis reports fairly show no distinct gain, running his experiment on a 1lt Geo Metro 3cyl engine. I feel accomplished and happy when I rebuild an engine and it runs great. This is just my perception of "better" from my hard work and attention to detail. Does this mean that it runs better than stock? I would entertain the thought. This is a placebo effect, you could have secretly switched my rebuilt engine with a factory new one and I would still perceive my hard work makes the car run better. happy happy happy. Although I might also be just changing my driving habits, shifting at lower rpms, being leaner on the throttle, keeping my speed in check, hyper-miling, changed to a different fuel, different weight oil, etc,... Ultimately your engine rebuild makes you happy then I say great job, well done, enjoy. I do find this mod fascinating, but I reside in the "skeptic" camp. -no offense intended these are my opinions. -RRJ
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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 12, 2010 20:53:43 GMT -5
Help me to prove or disprove this! We need some timed runs! Earlier I suggested to"accelerate from say, 30mph to 60mph, all the time in 5th gear". This would give us an average over the 2000 to 4000 rpm band(give or take). Point is that you can design any test you like; the grooves may improve one section of the rpm band at the expense of another section? Obviously, we want the longest test possible, for accuracy, this is why I recommend 5th gear. 60mph is speed limit and 30mph is lower range limit... Your choice... It would be nice to know when ya hit 40mph, 50mph..., again to see where the torque gains are to be had.
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 14, 2010 23:01:55 GMT -5
Yesterday I changed out my head gasket again, with 2 goals in mind; fix the small leak from the oil supply to the head, and to do some Siingh Grooves.
I was rained/snowed out after I got everything apart and the grooves cut, so I had to put everything back together today.
One silver lining is that I had used a few dabs of black silicone to hold the gasket in place, and it was secure by the time I was putting things together again today. Also, to make sure the oil supply leak would go away, I removed the very thin rubber oval shaped O-ring from the head gasket, and used the silicone to cure a thicker one in place. THE LEAK IS FIXED !!! WOOHOO!!!
On to the Siingh Grooves.
I've been to about 25+ different forums to read up about these. It's funny, because most every one that hasn't done it is pretty skeptical to outright totally dismissing it. Thus my "research" - to glean from other's EXPERIENCE instead of hearing others going on & on theorizing this & that....
Bottom line for me is If it sounds like it could net me gas money savings & better power, thus making my 450 miles per week of work commuting better & cheaper, for NO EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT - just grinding some grooves, which is FREE, I'm willing to do a little research.
From my research; There are those out there that have done some of the dyno testing, and they saw good results. I've read from many individuals that have done the grooves in either 1, or many cars/trucks, race cars , etc (all kinds of different vehicles), etc, ... and everyone that gave it a real chance was at MINIMUM very pleased with the results.
I figure, what have I got to lose? a head perhaps? so what - I can always replace a head if it comes to that - I am willing to take that chance after reading of many, many other's successes. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I observed that those who tried it & did very small slits, didn't see the results they were looking for until they went back and did it more aggressively. With this in mind, I did 3 good, deep grooves near the spark plug, pointing to the plug in a radial pattern, and 2 more; 1 on each of the other 2 squish areas.
I drove the car about 30 miles this late afternoon (In town driving, almost freeway speed canyon driving, freeway driving). I think I need some more miles (10-20) before the computer is totally settled in with re-connecting up sensors & such, but during the last half of the miles driven, there are several noticeable differences.
The car is definitely zippier on surface streets, more consistent in it's power, and there is more power there - I can accelerate quicker and more smoothly - nothing like a turbo boost, for sure - there are still only 3 cylinders there, but there are power gains in several of the gears that was not there before (which has been very noticeable in my 450 mile a week commuting). I have probably about 5000 miles on the car since my engine rebuild in which I have become very familiar how it drives/responds in different driving conditions (flats, hills, long uphill grades, etc.).
Back to today's driving results. 2000 to 2500 RPMs is the flatest spot, but 2800 RPM's on up has more get up & go. Most of this that I'm describing is from simulating how I drive during my commute at different speeds and terrain, and then trying to accelerate - from trying to accelerate fast some times, to trying to nudge up the speed. On my normal commute, I have not been able to get any extra power trying to accelerate in certain conditions, especially 2 or 3 uphill grades. Those will be a good test this coming week. Also, myself going up by myself, vs, the 2 days/ week I have a co-worker with me. Today, I did notice that the car did better in 5th gear in areas where I have had to keep it in 4th to keep up the same pace/speed.
Hope this is interesting to you - I'm very interested to see how it pans out over the next while; mileage, power getting up the hills, ...
Doug
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 15, 2010 3:04:29 GMT -5
Well Doug you are +1 with all the other testimonials I have read. People who do this mod seem happy to have done it, no one really shows any losses. Still not seeing the dyno #'s from you either. Doug's seat tested. Doug's seat approved.
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 15, 2010 9:01:53 GMT -5
It's still early in the game for me, and time, driving, & mileage will at least show some of the picture. I am going to look into what it would take to get some dyno numbers (do they dis-like running studded snow tires on their machines?). as we know, though, I don't have a baseline to compare against since I've already changed the head. I would have liked to do a baseline, but time for working on the Justy, motorcycle, house, honeydo's, ...is at such a premium, I needed to run with it. too bad. Anyway's, I'm looking forward seeing what happens this week. I've been consistently getting 32-33 mpg before the mod. I have all of my mileage, repairs, etc., data, and I need to get to entering it into my Blackberry app to help me figure it out easier.
I just put a BiXenon HID kit into the Justy and am excited to "see" (LOL) how that goes at 5 in the morning up the very dark canyon.
Doug
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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 15, 2010 10:31:40 GMT -5
That's great news Doug,
If you get a chance, do tell us more about your Justy model(Year, drive, carb/FI, ...) and see if you can get some timed runs going. Your choice on gear & range. All I'd need is starting speed, then times in seconds when you hit higher speeds
-(ex, start 40mph(5th), 50mph(5sec), 60mph(12sec))-this is just example, off top of my head, but really, this is all the data I'm looking for...
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 15, 2010 10:45:59 GMT -5
I figure, what have I got to lose? a head perhaps? so what - I can always replace a head if it comes to that I think I need some more miles (10-20) before the computer is totally settled in with re-connecting up sensors & such, but during the last half of the miles driven, there are several noticeable differences. "I figure, what have I got to lose? a head perhaps? so what - I can always replace a head if it comes to that"Doug, I would like to make you a standing offer that "if it comes to that" I would like to purchase your old head from you so that I can weld it and resurface it. "I think I need some more miles (10-20) before the computer is totally settled in with re-connecting up sensors & such"Why wouldn't the computer just go about its normal business, none the wiser to your rebuild or any other modifications? What do you mean by reset? Please explain. As far as fuel consumption calculations go, the only one that I trust is to fill up the tank all the way, reset the trip meter to zero, drive around, refuel all the way, divide the exact number on the pump (example; 8.5 gallons) into the number of miles driven (example; 280) and voila, accurate figure. And I have nothing against slick handset applications either as I am a clinical app-hole (HTC T-Mobile G1)
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Post by jeremydde on Mar 16, 2010 3:43:26 GMT -5
That's great news Doug, If you get a chance, do tell us more about your Justy model(Year, drive, carb/FI, ...) and see if you can get some timed runs going. Your choice on gear & range. All I'd need is starting speed, then times in seconds when you hit higher speeds -(ex, start 40mph(5th), 50mph(5sec), 60mph(12sec))-this is just example, off top of my head, but really, this is all the data I'm looking for... I'm afraid that there are far too many variables to make an accurate power calculation here. How are you going to account for wind resistance (Cd), or difference in gear ratio based on tire wear? How about the lack of an accurate weight? Also, let's face it, most streets are far from "level". A road that appears level maybe slightly downhill or uphill; There could also be a headwind, or tailwind! Then there are the distance and timing errors... The fact is that there will be too many sources of error to calculate this properly. Modern power measurement tools (not dynos) use G-sensors or GPS to make more accurate assumptions of power, but even they are off. If they are even off 2%, that could be within the range of this "mod". Jeremy
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Post by justyjuggler on Mar 16, 2010 11:55:16 GMT -5
The fact is that there will be too many sources of error to calculate this properly. But... Is there any harm in asking?? Besides, vehicle details have been requested as to give most accuracy to results, that is if moemoney313 or dmnordin are so inclined to do a few test runs... Note: I have requested the test runs for my own interest. Results will not be conclusive as to the efficiency gains of this mod, but they may be persuasive to other builders.
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 17, 2010 12:03:46 GMT -5
JustyJuggler - '92 4WD 2 door GL, Fuel Injected w/13" alum rims.
SeattleJusty - When referring to the ECU resetting, I was referring to how you need to drive the car 30-50 miles after you change some sensor input (such as adjusting the Throttle Position Sensor) before the ECU establishes a new baseline to operate from.
I normally do record and calculate my mileage the old fashioned way every time I fill up, and record the numbers in Quicken. I'm in the middle of switching to a Blackberry Pearl (8120 - T-Mobile) that my son gave me when he bought an I-Touch. I'm thinking it'll do the figuring (each time & cumulative) for me after I get it all set up & populated w/my data to date.
Doug
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 17, 2010 14:08:16 GMT -5
94 2WD 2 door DL w/ AC I weigh 240 ib full tank of fuel
30mph to 60mph seconds
40mph 7 8 7 6
50mph 13 17 14 12
60mph 19 23 19 18
Doug, did you put five(5) grooves per cylinder in your head?
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 17, 2010 14:47:34 GMT -5
yes
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 17, 2010 15:26:44 GMT -5
In 5th gear my engine starts to really pull from 45mph up. My engine feels a lot smoother. Are you getting about the same results? Thanks for helping me out here! Wish I could afford a dyno!
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