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Post by moemoney313 on Feb 7, 2010 18:05:23 GMT -5
I have a 1994 Subaru Justy Dl with 80904 miles, 529 miles on new engine. I bought a short block on ebay a couple of years back and had a valve job done on a head I had. Nothing fancy, just a basic valve job. My father's cancer was terminal so everything was put on hold for a couple of years.
Got tired of watching my new short block starting to rust so I made the move to put it all back together. This is the 3rd, and hopefully, the final engine for this car. Somehow I was able to take the engine out and put in the new by hand. My right fender has a dent in it to prove it. I put in new clutch assembly and finally, after three tries, got her in there.
I have done a lot of reading about Singh groves and decided to give it a try. My only problem was that I could not get any of the machine shops around here to do it. They did not have a clue! Neither did I! I had the cylinder head in my bed trying to decide how best to do this. I have the 3 valve head, 2 intake and 1 exhaust. I had another cylinder head, so I took the plunge.
Since I am no expert, I can't tell you if what I did was the best. All I know is that my spark plugs are white, with a little blue on the electrodes. I have no blow-by coming from the valve cover. My oil looks like I just put it in at 509 miles, due for a change. It does not ping or smoke anymore and I am averaging 48mpg! To be fair, this is a new engine, injectors were rebuilt by witchhunter for $17 a piece and all my sensors and oxygen sensor replaced. It has a new thermostat, but my water temp is just above C (cold). Normally it runs about a third above C. I get good heat.
It pulls real strong. I have 155/80r12 and am able to burn rubber in 2nd gear! It never did that before! Engine is lot smoother! Because of the oil pump problem, I purchase a Instalube prelube system, but have yet to install it do to clearance problems with my A/C system. I had to fabricate a mounting bracket between the battery tray and radiator to mount the storage tank. Just need to figure how to get oil into the oil pressure switch.
Where did I place my grove? I have the 3 valve head, so if you flip the head over where the intakes are at the bottom and the exhaust and sparkplug at the top, I placed a deep grove in the quench zone next to the sparkplug aimed at the intake under the sparkplug. I used a hack saw for my initial cut, and shaped it with a file set, then smooth it with sandpaper. I used headgasket as a templete so I wouldn't cut too far. I didn't shave the head, I thought putting the grove in was risky enough! So far it is working. I have no oil leaks for the first time since owning this car. I keep hearing about synthetic oil being bad for this engine but I believe I would like to try a good synthetic. Using 10W30 conventional oil for break in. Not sure about brand or weight of oil I should use. Thanks to all you guys (gals) in this forum for helping me keep my Justy alive.
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Post by madmatt on Feb 8, 2010 14:17:16 GMT -5
Awsome!
I have been doing a bit of internet research on these since first reading about them several years ago.
I'm still unsure of the science (as in I'm not sure what's actually happening...), but everybody that has tried them seems to be a believer afterwards.
Did you take any pictures? How deep are the groves???
Please keep us posted on the results, and the condition of oil/plugs.
Awesome work!
Matt
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Post by imaginarius on Feb 9, 2010 13:00:24 GMT -5
Just umm........is it supposed to be "grooves"?
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Post by moemoney313 on Feb 9, 2010 14:25:58 GMT -5
I stand corrected! Since I was not sure if this would work and if I was even going to do this, I did not take any pictures of the original work. Above is a picture of my old head modified to show where the "groove" was placed. I used a hack saw to make the initial cut and shaped it with a cheap file set I bought at Big Lots, with the clean up done with fine sandpaper. I could have done a shorter "groove" aimed at the center of the combustion chamber, but I chose the longer "groove" aimed at the intake valve next to the spark plug. I angled into the combustion chamber going deeper and flaring out into the chamber. I used a rat tail file for a circular shape. My thinking was that when the piston is at TDC, it would force the air fuel mix, which was ignited by the spark plug, to swirl towards the intake around to the exhaust and back to the quench zone, where the flame front would be sucked into the "groove" as the piston starts to move down! I am no expert and without a dyno and some expensive test equipment, I can only guess. All I know, after two engines, this one performs the best. At over 80,000 miles, and two engines, I am sure my catalytic converters no longer work, but my exhaust is a light grey with no oily residue. I have no blow-by from my valve cover, even when you rev the engine up. My spark plugs are white with a slight blue tinge on the electrodes and it has a lot more low end torque. My short block was factory new and I have to say I broke it in hard, without lugging or over revving it. I ran the engine at different speeds for the first 500 miles using 10w30 oil. Since this is a new engine, was wondering if anyone had any success using synthetics in their Justy. What brand and weight?
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Post by moemoney313 on Feb 13, 2010 21:24:47 GMT -5
This is the old engine, spun rod bearing from no oil pressure. Dent in front fender trying to place engine in car. New engine in car. Broke PCV breather on air intake housing. Trying to find a replacement.
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Post by DrewNukesEm on Feb 15, 2010 23:14:33 GMT -5
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Post by moemoney313 on Feb 18, 2010 13:57:17 GMT -5
At 778 miles, did the first oil change. Spark plugs continue to burn clean. Wanted to go synthetic, but was a little concerned about the particles found in the dropped oil. Break in oil was 10w30 w/ Super Tech oil filter. Particles were bronze looking and non-magnetic. Some particles were plastic, probably from the balancer chain guide. Not sure about the bronze particles. Engine still feels solid and no oil leaks. Still able to burn rubber in 2nd gear. Lots of low end torque! Thanks DrewNukesEm for your comments and the links ... to be honest I dropped the engine the first time I tried it! I hope it is not haunting me now!
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Post by madmatt on Feb 19, 2010 20:13:10 GMT -5
Justy Awesome...
I'm thinking about getting a spare head for the Volvo and grooving it up!
What is you fuel mileage like?
I know you say it gives up rubber in 2nd, but is the huge gain in feel-able torque in upper gears there that everyone talks about. I'm curious with the Justy head, because the squish zone is so small (compared to typical 2 valve engines), and that seems to be where you get the big torque increase.
Keep us in the loop!
Matt
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Post by moemoney313 on Feb 20, 2010 23:42:21 GMT -5
This is my third engine, and this one out pulls the first two big time. I am only on my second tank of fuel. My milage on the first tank, which consisted of mostly under 50 mph, stop and go, country driving was 48.3 mpg.
On my second tank, I took a 120 mile trip and it burned only a quarter of a tank. I don't know how accurate the gauge is without a fill up. I will know the numbers when I top it up. But it is getting better fuel milage.
My Justy does not have the tach, just the shift light. I am able to upshift way before the light comes on! The engine accelerates smoothly without having to over rev the engine. I am able to pass in 5th gear and piss people off when I drop a gear. The car does not look that fast!
Will only go 300 miles on this oil change. Checking to make sure I am not doing damage to the engine. Valve cover is starting to seep, but it is the old one, will replace with new at next oil change. Hopefully I will be able to install my prelube system and know if I am able to use synthetic or not. Fixing my PVC breather will be my next project.
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Post by dmnordin on Mar 2, 2010 8:39:50 GMT -5
I just did my first oil & filter change (3500 miles) since my engine rebuild - I used normal 10-30 valvoline for the break in period. I put in valvoline 5-30 synthetic now that the engine is broken in. I don't see why synthetic would be a problem - why do some here seem scared to use synthetic? I've used it in many cars with good success.
I have to replace my head gasket, and will be doing the siingh grooves at the same time. I want to do it on my other vehicles as well - maybe this summer.
Doug
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 3, 2010 13:53:06 GMT -5
Dough, thanks for the info. When you do yours please let everyone know what, if any, improvements you got. If I wasn't driving this thing I would think someone is blowing smoke!
I got this car when it had only 19000 miles. Messed up first engine by not tightening the bolt on the harmonic balancer, after changing the timing belt, sheared the dowel pins on the crank. Tried to rebuild, but parts and labor too expensive!
2nd engine, which I got from the junk yard, kept wiping rod bearings. Finally the oil pump gave up.
This engine is completely stock! New short block off of Ebay, rebuilt head from original engine, Only modifications were the Singh Grooves I did at the spur of the moment.
When I say I can get rubber in 2nd gear, I don't mean a chirp. I have to get off the gas so that I can get traction. It feels like I have a v6 under the hood. I have 155/80r12's with good rubber all around. My right front breaks traction ... no positraction. This engine has torque! This is straight line on concrete pavement! It's a sleeper! My hope is that I don't blow it up before I make a 1000 mile trip to see my family. Maybe someone out there has the resources to document before and after. I haven't had this much fun since I had 1967 Mustang fastback, only without the tickets!
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Post by madmatt on Mar 3, 2010 21:14:21 GMT -5
With regards to blowing it up, my understanding is the more progressive burn rate is way easier on the engine. Part of the reason why you can run higher compression ratios (plus the reduction in knock)
In your first post you mentioned nothing of skimming the head to increase comp. ratio. Did you, and if not, did you consider it?
Thanks,
Matt
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 3, 2010 22:56:44 GMT -5
In your first post you mentioned nothing of skimming the head to increase comp. ratio. Did you, and if not, did you consider it? Thanks, Matt Matt brings up a point and I want to add to this; being a partial skeptic myself, after first reading the original post about these "Singh Grooves", I researched it a bit and scratched my head. I thought I was pretty on top of things but I had never before heard of this stuff. It sounded very, very fishy to me so I contacted John Edwards of Costa Mesa R & D. I have the highest regard for John as he is not only one of America's foremost automotive machining experts but he has authored such books as the SEMA award winning Auto Dictionary HP Books 1993, Yamaha FJ, FZ, XJ & YX600 Radian Owner's Workshop Manual Haynes 1995, Sunnen's factory Sunnen's complete cylinder head and engine rebuilding handbook as issued from the factory, just to name a few. The complete list of books he's had published is too lengthy to list here but needless to say, Mr. Edwards' credentials are stellar. I asked him for insight into this modification and here's what he had to say: Alright, I've seen this site before. Here's whassup, the quench area is a high pressure area when the pistons is @ TDC. the slot accelerates the air/fuel charge via the slot into the center of the combustion chamber to enhance the swirl and therefore provide a slightly better mix of the mix to get a more complete combustion. Snake oil, not quite. I haven't tried it myself, but if you have the compression to give up, give it a try. You may loose[sic] about a full compression point with the mod. If you are going to do this, it might be better to cc the head before and after mods and then get the correct pistons to regain the compression loss.
JE... I think we should heed these words. The Justy may seem to have a high static compression ratio out of the box with 9.1:1 and 9.2:1 for carb'd and MPFI engines respectively (EF12 North America) but with an aluminum cylinder head these ratios are more like an 8:1 or 8.5:1 that you'd find in a traditional iron head'd engine. In other words, our static compression ratio is not particularly high. For us to lose a full compression point would be a detriment to performance. My prediction is that whatever one would gain from these grooves, would instantly be negated by the reduced compression ratio. That is, unless the owner were to compensate by taking measures to preserve the static compression ratio. The obvious way to achieve an increase (more accurately: preemptive increase before the loss created by grooving) would be to skim the cylinder head to reduce the volume of the combustion chamber. However there are two potential problems in doing this; - firstly the casting for the cylinder head was not designed with thickness in mind to accommodate Mr. Singh's grooves after skimming. There is a dangerous potential to create a weak spot against a water jacket, oil passage or intake/exhaust port where the wall thickness has been reduced as a result of these modifications. The threat is a cracked cylinder head.
- secondly, if the head doesn't crack from the thinned surface, you still face the possibility developing a hot spot where the thinner metal is less able to transfer heat and thus run the risk of detonation as a result.
The way I see it, the only really safe way to keep from losing compression and negating any gains from this modification, is to either use a thinner head gasket or to employ special pistons that have a higher crown for increased (read compensated) compression. If we were talking about Chevy V8s or Ford V8s, we could go to the corner drug store and buy three or four different head gaskets of varying thicknesses to achieve multiple compression ratios. . . but we're not talking about those. . we talkin' 'bout Jutys, y'all. You want a different thickness head gasket? Cu$tom made baby. Okay so how about those pi$tons??? Cu$tom made, baby! I will cheer you guys on if you decide to do this but my official opinion as with all other modifications is and always will be, show me the dyno slip and show me the before and after mileage reports after 12 months of daily driving. For extra credit, show me the combustion chamber after 12 months of daily driving and let me see what kind of deposits have formed. Why am I skeptical? A) because a little bit of it is healthy and B) because if it were really that easy then why didn't any manufacturer do this out of the box in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, why aren't they doing it now? Okay now let's see how much power it makes, go!
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 4, 2010 18:19:47 GMT -5
Madmatt, I did not shave the head. This modification was totally unplanned, something I did after I got the shortblock in the car. As for the thickness of the area I placed the groove, I felt it was thick enough. Because I had another spare head, I took a chance!
Every day I check for leaks and oil and coolant levels. Every other day I pull and read the spark plugs. If a leak occurs in the combustion chamber it will show on the plugs. So far so good.
This morning I pulled the valve cover and checked the torque on the head bolts and checked the valve clearances. All good.
Like I said, I am no expert, but this engine, my third, performs the best! I don't have access to a dyno, just the seat of my pants, and the surprised looks of most of the people trying to pass me!
No cam, performance exhaust, or other expensive modifications. Just a simple groove I placed in each cylinder with a hack saw and a file set. Unless something goes wrong, I don't plan to take it apart. I have a 2,000 mile trip ahead and I want to get all the bugs out before I take the trip! I feel that confident!
The bottom line, it works for me. Would I do it again? Yes. I enjoy this car now!
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 4, 2010 21:30:23 GMT -5
So maybe could you be persuaded to plop down $100 for one hour on the rollers? Hell, it would probably take all of fifteen minutes.
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Post by moemoney313 on Mar 5, 2010 17:33:01 GMT -5
SeattleJusty, I would love to dyno ... the $100, hell no! There was a reason I had to put my engine in by hand. I could not afford a cherry picker.
Up until now, I was satisfied reading what others had to share about their Justy. It was only after having put it all together that I noticed there was something different about this engine. The only thing I added was Singh grooves! No cam, no exhaust, everything else was stock! WitchHunter redid my injectors and flow tested so they flowed the same, but no modifications at all! I wanted to share this with others who have the resources to see if they would get the same results!
To be fair, to dyno after the fact would not let you know what type of improvement you are really getting, because you don't have a base! All you are going to get is a bunch of numbers that won't mean squat unless you compare it to something!
A total of 3 engines have been in this car since I have owned it. It was my daily driver until it spun a rod and the oil pump went out. I drive pretty much the same route and you get to know what your car can and cannot do!
1. I am able to accelerate in 5th gear where I had to downshift on a mountain comming from town.
2. I have absolutely no pinging, even under heavy load. My previous 2 engines would ping!
3. My mileage seems to be much better. I will know for sure when I take my trip.
4. It gets rubber in 2nd. It never did that before, rarely in 1st, without popping the clutch and revving the hell out it (threw rod).
I would love to prove it to you, but I can't. My hope is someone would try to duplicate what I did and get the same good results! Right now I have to be content with what I have ... ego be damned!
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 5, 2010 18:13:03 GMT -5
It is possible, even likely that what you had before were some worn out engines that didn't perform up to snuff. Maybe what you are enjoying now is equal to a good, new, Justy.
I will stick to my scientific ways though. Maybe I'm from Misouri. . . The "show me state".
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Post by xtremzj on Mar 5, 2010 18:45:28 GMT -5
or maybe just maaaybe, that a modded justy worked huh. weird concept for you huh?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2010 23:32:31 GMT -5
The only thing I added was Singh grooves! No cam, no exhaust, everything else was stock! WitchHunter redid my injectors and flow tested so they flowed the same, but no modifications at all! I wanted to share this with others who have the resources to see if they would get the same results! By your own admission you added a new engine and clutch and you are comparing it to engines that failed. A total of 3 engines have been in this car since I have owned it. It was my daily driver until it spun a rod and the oil pump went out. I drive pretty much the same route and you get to know what your car can and cannot do! To be fair, to dyno after the fact would not let you know what type of improvement you are really getting, because you don't have a base! All you are going to get is a bunch of numbers that won't mean squat unless you compare it to something! You are correct, attributing any performance enhancements to small grooves hacksawed in the combustion camber is fiction unless you have baseline data to compare it to. I am sure my ante-comments seem harsh, but this discussion is pointless without baseline data. I am also a skeptic, but I am interested. However, without putting some miles on the new engine w/ professionally rebuilt injectors and a new clutch before scratching grooves in the head, the point is moot. I think you can safely say that you did a good job rebuilding the engine, at this point it does not appear to be doing any damage, but beyond that...it's fun to drive. I experience a similar thing when I do multiple improvements at a time to a system in one of my many vehicles. It usually performs better, but I cannot attribute the performance to any one thing. There is just no way of knowing. You could throw a new engine and clutch in your car and tie a flower to your antenna or paint your hood some ridiculous blue and yellow pattern and say your car performes better because of it. With a new engine, new clutch, and 155s on 12 inch rims in a '94 DL you should be able to burn some rubber and climb hills in 5th. I am not sure if '94 DL's came with 13's stock, but if so the odometer is calibrated to 13's which will throw off your mpg calculation. I really do wish we had something to compare this to. It would be really cool if it works. If someone else decides to do this, please do it on an engine that has some performance history so we can compare. Even small percentages would be cool. I also think it's cool that you took the chance moemoney and brought this into the forum. It is inventive and laudable, but we can't jump to conclusions.
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Post by redmavis12 on Mar 6, 2010 8:06:23 GMT -5
I'm with the skeptics on this one...my unmodded totally stock '94 DL with 160,000+ miles on it does everything your singh-grooved Justy does. Except I won't lay out a stretch of rubber in 2nd gear and risk blowing my engine that I depend on for daily transportation. I think you are finding just how wonderful these little engines are when new and kept in good running order...most of them have been abused like your former engines. However, still an interesting discussion and I wish you the best of luck with your (new) Justy. Cheers, RM
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