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Post by imaginarius on Jun 28, 2009 22:54:52 GMT -5
Yeah, I got it. This is Jeremy's post, remember?
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Post by jeremydde on Jun 29, 2009 1:02:39 GMT -5
Hello! It's the OP here. Seems there was a lengthy debate while I was away for the day. Thanks for the positive feedback guys! Imaginarius, I couldn't help but notice that you are at the forefront of conflict on this forum. You may find that it is because of your flagrant use of derogatory comments such as: Which one of you douches told ME that I should not put on a turbo "because your engine needs to be fully tuned before you do anything"? When you post comments like this other members may lose respect for you. If you are interested in turbocharging your Justy then read through my thread carefully to get an idea of what's involved. Other members may be questioning your "skill level" simply because you haven't demonstrated/posted any. My impression of your skill level is probably on par with other members. You want a turbo, so start building it! You have a question, then send me a PM. But when you ask for a walkthrough on how to install a cone filter, its probably for the best that you do some research before diving into turbocharging. Also, I have to check my oil weekly. The added temperature/pressure of a turbo thins the oil out causing more oil to blow-by the rings, hence the oil catch can. This also means that I have to keep an eye on my oil level more frequently. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 4, 2009 22:27:36 GMT -5
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 4, 2009 22:55:46 GMT -5
Here are some fuel system updates: I modified another factory fuel rail that I had to allow for an external fuel pressure regulator. I did this just in case my pressure was too high due to my ridiculously powerful fuel pump. I cut off the factory regulator, and welded on a thick washer. Then I tapped the welded end to 1/8npt to allow for the fuel pressure gauge. Here is the modified fuel rail installed. There is just enough room to clear the fan switch! And here is the rail installed with the fan switch plugged in. It clears by maybe 2mm. Here is the fuel pressure regulator that I picked up locally for $40. Currently the car runs beautifully through every rpm and load condition with the exception of a lean tip-in off idle. This means that when you are at a stop light and tap the throttle to go, the engine hestitates for a second before the rpm will increase. It was suggested to me on the megasquirt forum to decrease my injector size to test if it was a fuel injector response problem or not. I tested my fuel pressure, and it was stable at 37psi with the walbro 255 pumping furiously behind it. I installed this rail and regulator, along with some smaller injectors to see if I could get enough fuel with 250cc injectors for my turbo, while still allowing me to correct my lean tip-in. Unfortunately the smaller injectors did nothing for my lean tip-in, and also failed to give me enough fuel in boost for my turbo, so I removed them, and re-installed the 326cc injectors. These injectors run at around 75% duty cycle with my setup and are perfectly sized for my boost/power levels. Since I have ruled out a fueling problem for my tip-in, the only thing that remains is an ignition response problem. I am currently using the factory Justy distributor, triggering with the 3-toothed wheel inside. I think the problem could be that the megasquirt doesn't detect the change in RPM when you tap the throttle at such a low rpm. With only three teeth spaced 120 degrees apart, the time it takes between pulses is too long at low rpm. To correct this ignition resolution problem, I'm gonna install my 36-1 trigger wheel on the crank, and use that to trigger the megasquirt instead of the factory distributors' 3-toothed wheel. I will illustrate how this is done in the near future. Jeremy
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Post by =Justyless= on Jul 5, 2009 13:07:36 GMT -5
nice! keep up the good work!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 13:32:16 GMT -5
Absolutely beautiful work. I am jealous of your skills, knowledge, and TIG, but enjoy them nonetheless. Excellent write-up as well. You could write a manual on turboing a Justy and pay for your project...seriously. Ebay magic.
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 5, 2009 14:15:35 GMT -5
Absolutely beautiful work. I am jealous of your skills, knowledge, and TIG, but enjoy them nonetheless. Excellent write-up as well. You could write a manual on turboing a Justy and pay for your project...seriously. Ebay magic. Thanks for the positive comments! I've seen plenty of threads based on "I wanna turbo my Justy, How do I begin?". If people read through mine and see what's involved to turbo a FI justy properly then perhaps less people will ask the same questions. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 6, 2009 11:52:13 GMT -5
Jeremydde, The P in PCV stand for Positive, as in "certain" or "for sure". We want to be 'postitive' about crankcase airflow to remove harmfull fuel vapors(blow-by) before it condenses into the oil, making it an acidic sludge. Your oil can is designed to catch oil so it doesn't gum up your intercooler, right? Here's how I'd route the hoses then, Nice build BTW, I'd follow almost to a Tee if I felt underpowered. stacks The catch can will mostly catch raw fuel actually. Obviously there will be some oil in there as well, but over time I have found it to catch mostly fuel. By catching this fuel it does allow for the oil in the crankcase to last longer. By re-routing the hoses as you have illustrated, you would allow the turbo to suck in these contaminants thus running them through the intercooler, intake manifold and into the engine. Any oil that enters the combustion chamber displaces air/fuel and can cause the engine to knock easier. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 7, 2009 20:52:52 GMT -5
J I'm confused why a clever lad like yourself fails to see things my way. Perhaps I am wrong about this but I still feel you are settling with a compromise. Your OCC is a seperator; it catches the oil. Any fuel vapors(blow-by) are seperated from the oil and can then be burned, or in your case vented to atmosphere. Venting unburned fuel to atmosphere is wasteful, polluting and probably illegal for street use. No oil would ever enter your intake tract as it has already been seperated and stayed in your OCC. The way I see things now, your OCC's sole purpose is to keep that little color matched filter from clogging while it spews pollutants, no? Also, where is the airflow that scrubs your valve cover? Why go thru the trouble of seperating oil and fuel vapors when your going to discard both of 'em? stacks The only thing that gets vented to atmosphere is pressure! No oil or fuel gets expelled past the red filter. That is it's purpose. Also, the oil and fuel aren't easily separated in real time. This mixture of oil/fuel remains aerated for a little while. This is why no "separator" works 100%. Running another port, or one port from the can to the intake tract will create a vacuum in the can which will definitely pull oil and fuel back into the intake. When you turbo an engine the crankcase pressure rises considerably. On some of our race motors we'll vent the valvecover in a couple places and the block (where possible). This excess crank pressure can result in a loss of power (every motor varies), increase the chance of the turbo oil return backing up, cause oil seals to leak in the engine, and add more stress to piston ringlands. I've had engines shoot their dipsticks out under boost. I've had a Porsche 944 turbo blow out an oil pan gasket and catch fire. I've seen a Honda B18C shoot it's cam seal out and lose half of it's oil! Hooking the lines up your way would result in the engine creating a vacuum on one line drawing pressure from the can, while the other port connected to the valvecover would further pressurize the can. The net result of this will be oil in the intake. There wouldn't be a way of installing a check valve either as this would prevent the engine crankcase from venting, which is the whole point. The factory pcv system functions well enough for a factory engine to vent it's crankcase. It is useless on an upgraded motor. Could I run a line from the can and back into the intake? I certainly could, but the half a litre of wasted fuel per month vs the risk of the engine sucking in oil, or causing an oil seal to prematurely fail isn't worth it. The way that the can is installed there is no risk of oil being ingested, and plenty of crankcase evacuation to prevent oil loss through aged seals. Also given that this is a stock motor that has been turbocharged, why risk sucking in any oil and having the engine knock? You can tune an engine and then try to compensate for the oil in the intake (like a factory tune), or you can take the oil out of the equation and never have to worry about it. Some guys run a sealed can, and hook the lines up like you have described. They expect some oil to pass through anyways and they compensate for it by pulling more timing. Also, in some circuit racing you can't have a can setup like mine just in case you roll the car and it creates a mess on the track. Bottom line is that there isn't enough wasted fuel to warrant hooking it up your way and compensating for the oil. Also, the oil/fuel remains in the can are easily recycled during each oil change anyways. It doesn't spray into the engine bay or leak out. And most importantly it doesn't pollute the environment. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 8, 2009 20:05:30 GMT -5
I dislike this business of "my way/your way" and prefer a more objective reference like "Vented to Atmosphere System" and "Recirculating System" Makes sense for discussion. I wasn't trying to convey that it was your way like you invented it or anything. I was just following along. Rubbish!!, The red filter is little more than an SOS pad; any blow-by vapors that do not stay condensed in oil mix will be vented to atmosphere This isn't my first catch can by a long shot. There are no oil/fuel residues getting past the filter. The only pollutant that could possible blow past the filter in pressure is exhaust gases. The gases blow-by the rings and make their way through to the can. The key thing here is that these are burned-hydrocarbons. The government and environmentalists alike would make the point that they should recirc back into the engine to rob horsepower (exhaust recirc robs power) simply so they would pass through the catalytic converter later. Since I currently don't have a cat installed it makes no difference. The raw oil and fuel stay in the can. I have been doing this for years, and witnessed this design work on the dyno many times. Also keep in mind that the only time any exhaust was visually seen passing through any of my cans was at 22psi of boost on a race engine. Alot of filters are made of sponges including several race filters made by reputable companies. If you want I could order a drop-in filter from a catalog that comes pre-oiled to appease your mind? Aha!! So the current Oil Catch Can doesn't work? Why have you so little confidence in your design? It has nothing to do with my confidence in my design, and everything to do with efficiency. There is no physical, electrical, or mechanical process that can boast a 100% efficiency level that I am aware of. Many points/details are brought up here but most are based on the faulty assumption of reduced crankcase pressure when using a Vented System over a Recirc System. This is where we don't see eye to eye. You are making the assumption that since the crankcase isn't being vacuumed out that the pressures won't evacuate quickly enough. This is incorrect and has been proven time and time again. If you provide enough locations to vent the crankcase, then vacuuming it out isn't necessary. Having one hose venting to the can, while one vacuums isn't necessarily going to be more efficient than two hoses venting to the can un-vacuumed. They may be close in efficiency, but the unvacuumed system will never pass contaminants back into the intake. In some cases it has been found through testing that the engine could use a vacuumed setup. Instead of running vacuum through the intake and passing contaminants in through there, they run a slashcut tube welded at a 45 degree angle backwards to the exhaust flow. The exhaust flow creates a vacuum in the tube evacuating the crankcase. This clears the crankcase, and passes minor amounts of oil into the exhaust pipe, and not into the intake. The Recirc System holds the Crankcase @ slightly less than atmospheric pressure while the Vented System holds the same crankcase @ slightly higher then ATM. This assumption may be true for a non-turbo motor, but is completely false on a forced induction motor. Even if the can was vacuumed out, the crankcase will always be pressurized a couple psi above atmospheric pressure when the engine is under boost. Rubbish!!, Unburned hydrocarbons are bad news and are a major contributor to smog. Unburned hydrocarbons are bad news for the environment, but as I have stated and through experience I can assure you that no un-burned hydrocarbons are escaping from the can. Burned hydrocarbons may escape, but they have already been consumed right? I pollute the environment more opening my gas cap and releasing that pressure at the gas station than the can will ever spit out. It is still my belief that the Vented System is a big compromise as it wastes fuel, pollutes, fails smog/emission testing and holds the crankcase at a higher pressure. The Recirc System solves all these problems as it doesn't waste fuel, doesn't pollute, passes smog tests and keeps the crankcase at reduced pressure. It's a no-brainer, provided a working Oil Catch Can. The vented catch can only compromises burned hydrocarbons that fail to pass through the catalytic converter. For this reason it would fail a smog test. Not for any other that have been stated. Also, the local emissions testing do not care about any of this. It is my understanding that only the state of California show this much attention to all aspects of an engine. The rest of this statement is completely false. Ultimately it's your decision/project and I care little what you decide. I do, however, want to see your turbo last as I'd love a ride next time I make it west! My engine will last longer the way it has been setup as it can only ingest clean filtered air. PM if you are heading out west, and not only will I prove it to you, I'll show you engines that have been running with this kind of setup for years, and you can see with your own eyes that no unburned HC make it past the vented can. Also Stacks I urge you to research the two types of catch cans. There is the vented type, and the sealed type that is setup to recirc using vacuum. A vented can can't be setup back to vacuum. The vacuum induced would simply draw air in through the filter on the top. Jeremy
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Danimal
Getting my two Justys back together after a Justy hiatus.
Posts: 589
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Post by Danimal on Jul 9, 2009 9:43:06 GMT -5
Your work all looks great, Jeremy! Any chance of seeing the car in motion? Video for us?
I must ask, though, if you have removed your charcoal canister is there any way for your fuel tank to vent? With the stock Justy fuel tank(if that's what's installed) and increased fuel consumption rate, are you in any danger of your fuel tank collapsing?
What a lot of great custom work you have done; the modifications look great!
-Danimal
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 9, 2009 10:28:23 GMT -5
Your work all looks great, Jeremy! Any chance of seeing the car in motion? Video for us? I must ask, though, if you have removed your charcoal canister is there any way for your fuel tank to vent? With the stock Justy fuel tank(if that's what's installed) and increased fuel consumption rate, are you in any danger of your fuel tank collapsing? What a lot of great custom work you have done; the modifications look great! -Danimal There is no easy way for the fuel tank to vent. I am currently considering installing a small charcoal canister from another vehicle that's easy to plumb in. I then believe that during injector overun (when coasting in gear when the fuel injectors turn off) I can setup the megasquirt to turn on a purge valve to clear out tank fumes. The fuel vapour pressure in the tank doesn't rise beyond a certain point, and would never collapse the tank. The fuel tank vapor pressure varies depending on temperature too. This is why new vehicles have returnless fuel systems. The fuel doesn't get heated in the rail and returned to the back to fume up. Sometimes when I open the gas cap, almost nothing comes out that's audible. Othertimes the vapours released are quite audible. In terms of fuel consumption, the datalogs I took are showing me cruising on the highway at anywhere from 30-38mpg. It also shows about 8mpg at full boost at around 5000rpm! I have a spot-on emissions/economy tune above 2000rpm. Below, there still needs some work due to my lean-tip in problem which I am in the midst of correcting by installing a trigger wheel on the crankshaft. I have also ordered the parts to set the engine up for true COP (3 coils) and sequential injection. This will be the most advanced Justy injection system that I have ever seen online or otherwise. I have been helping onsk8 with his MS install to, but I am begininng to evolve further away from his setup. I can be the guinea pig as I don't need to drive the Justy everyday. I am actually considering purchasing an HD camera for home videos. I have actually been using my cell phone for all photos, and the one video that I have posted already. Jeremy
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Post by subyswamper on Jul 10, 2009 22:42:40 GMT -5
Great job 100%! I have an '89 justy also and I am about to tackle the wiring swap for fuel injection.
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 10, 2009 23:33:32 GMT -5
Great job 100%! I have an '89 justy also and I am about to tackle the wiring swap for fuel injection. Let me know if you have any questions. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 11, 2009 14:09:34 GMT -5
Let me know if you have any questions. Jeremy How costly and practical would it be to convert a carbed justy to FI using megasquirt rather than swapping over a stock harness and computer? stacks I'm not sure about the costs of the factory equipment. What I do know is that once you have assembled a megasquirt, all you have to do is remove all the carb harness from the engine bay and install a new one. My understanding of the factory conversion requires that you remove the dashboard and interior harness as well. The fuel system changes are the same for either route. I suppose if you don't care about your time then the factory equipment could probably be picked up cheaper than the necessary equipment to install a megasquirt. If you know what your plans are for your Justy in the future, then you know whether you need a factory system or otherwise. Also, I have noticed that there aren't many 4WD MT FI Justy's in my area. They all seem to be ECVT with the FI. This happens to be where I raided my cylinder head as well, from an ecvt. It would be harder in my area to find the MT FI harnesses. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 11, 2009 15:58:52 GMT -5
Seems the factory setup would be best for a NA setup/FI conversion. I suppose the megasquirt does away with MIL or 'Check Engine' systems. What benefits do you expect from Coil On Plug? Doesn't the factory setup already have sequential injection? Or is it the 'batch' type? How's your clutch holding up? Any hint of slippage of full boost? stacks The MIL check engine system is gone with the megasquirt, and is replaced with a far superior laptop! If there is a problem with the engine, then visually looking at the datalogging screen will provide you with a wealth of useful diagnostic information. If your TPS is out of spec/broken, then you can see that real time, etc... The factory setup appears to be sequential as well. In order to have the megasquirt run sequential, you need to install a trigger wheel, or re-code to the firmware to use both wheels inside of the distributor like the factory ecu does. The benefits of a COP setup are that instead of one coil working to charge/discharge 3 times at "X" RPM, each coil has to charge once. This allows for a stronger and more consistent spark as you now have the time between ignition events to charge each coil fully. I will continue to run the one coil for now, and convert the injection to sequential. This allows for greater fuel economy at low rpm, better emissions, and better control over large fuel injectors. Converting just the injectors to sequential isn't costly, and requires me to solder a few more parts into my current setup, then run 1 more wire for the 3rd injector. (MS has two outputs already). My clutch is holding boost very well. I haven't had a hint of slippage in full boost, even in 4WD on the highway in 5th. (Highest load possible). It seems that the modifications that were made are working out quite well. Also, driveability hasn't suffered with the stronger clutch. It grabs harder than stock, but it isn't so harsh, and can be driven in stop & go traffic with ease. Jeremy
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 12, 2009 11:42:46 GMT -5
Do all your injectors currently fire simultaneously(batch type)? Is the batch type wasteful or is it really just a matter of 'charging' the intake air, which will be burned in milliseconds anyways? I'm guessing MS has only 2 outputs to suit both sides of a V engine with a batch type system? How do you find the gearing(ratios) with the extra power? Do you run out of gears quickly? stacks Yes the injectors all fire simultaneously, which is only a problem at low rpm. At high rpm the timing is less important as each injection event is so close together. You are correct in that there are 2 outputs to suit v engines. Batch fired injectors are common in the domestic world on v6 + v8 engines from the factory. The gear ratios really aren't useful with more power. I find that they are all too short, and too much fuel is wasted on the highway in 5th as well. I have found that cruising in 5th at 90km/h uses noticeably less fuel than cruising at 100km/h or so. Jeremy
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Jul 12, 2009 15:42:48 GMT -5
I thought that the overdrives from the Gen2s were taller but that the ring gear from the Gen1 was taller. Am I backwards?
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Jul 12, 2009 19:43:45 GMT -5
OK
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Post by jeremydde on Jul 12, 2009 23:33:00 GMT -5
Is there any way to identify a 4wd transmission? I only ask as when I bought this car, the motor obviously wasn't original as it had the metal valvecover. Also it had the 89 electronic distributor (no vacuum advance, but not an FI one either), and had the two vacuum lines for the older distributor blocked off with screws. It also doesn't have equal length axles, or a half-shaft. Does this mean that I have the taller transmission possibly?
Jeremy
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