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Post by new2justys on Apr 29, 2015 9:39:27 GMT -5
I originally posted in the introductions. I did not mean to, it just happened!!! Anyway, I have a 1994 Justy. It is pretty clean, has original 117,000 miles from original owner. She bought another car and let it set. The gas went bad and rusted the tank. I tried to clean it but it was too bad so I bought another tank, pump and filter, cleaned the lines, new injectors. It will only run on starting fluid. The injectors are not pulsing. I have pulled all connectors, cleaned them and put them back. I have a new distributor cap, rotor, plugs and wires. I even bought a cheap ECU from Ebay to see if that might be it. All to no avail. I am still thinking it might be the camshaft position sensor but kind of afraid to drop 135.00 to get a new one if that may not be it. A cheap car is getting pretty close to its worth. Somebody said that MPFI Justys are prone to wiring issues there so I took out all the distributor wiring and cleaned it. Anyone have any other guidance? I do have a manual and have been using it. The only test I have not done is to have someone crank it and test the actual camshaft sensor. It does look like a relay may be missing as it is greasy from the electrical grease but maybe it was never there. It would be one of the 3 close to the firewall. The two there are the same that mount to the firewall, the third one is a different style. Is there anything else that could be an issue? She did take it to a mechanic who did try to start it and then when it looked like it would be expensive, she did not want to spend the money and it just sat in their shop. Thanks for any help!!!
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Post by nipper on Apr 29, 2015 15:45:45 GMT -5
You dont give a location, but maybe look on Ebay for an entire disty that may be cheaper then just a pickup. Also look at Rockauto.com
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Post by Armageddous on May 1, 2015 21:39:13 GMT -5
Have you checked fuses? Including the main fuses near the battery.
You say it does not have injector pulse. Do you mean there is no pulse from the ECU, or they are not working when power is sent to them?
Do you have spark?
Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 3, 2015 21:07:07 GMT -5
Yes, I do have spark. It runs on starting fluid and will run pretty good if you can keep supplying it to it. How do you know if you are getting a pulse signal from the ECU? I have not listened to the injectors but I know I have gas to them. I can have someone crank it and I use a scope to listen. I cleaned all the connections very well although they looked good. I hate to throw money at it by buying parts but I did get a new disty. I will try again when I get it in. All the fuses were good including the main ones. Thanks for your help.
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Post by nipper on May 4, 2015 21:51:15 GMT -5
Doesnt this have a crankshaft position sensor?
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Post by nipper on May 4, 2015 22:05:00 GMT -5
Power goes to the injectors, through them, then the ECU grounds out the connection. Make sure you have powers to the injectors when the car is on.
You may have an ECU issue
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Post by redfathom on May 5, 2015 10:09:44 GMT -5
you sure the injectors aren't firing? since it runs on starting fluid the pickup is at least partially working. the ecu should fire an "arbitrary injector" if the #1 pulse is missing. have you checked it with a noid light?
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Post by Armageddous on May 6, 2015 0:22:07 GMT -5
It has both a TDC and a cylinder distinction sensor.
You need to know if the injectors are firing (use a stethoscope). nipper is right, they are low-side logic, meaning the ECU grounds the circuit to turn them on. Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 10, 2015 17:29:36 GMT -5
Okay, all main fuses are good. No other fuses are blown. I pulled them all just to make sure there was not a connectivity issue. I put in a new distributor. Rebuilt Cardone. I have no other differences. It still behaves as it did from the start. So far, the only money wasted has been the disty since all others would have needed done anyway. I get a ton of fuel at the fuel rail. it blows out like a garden hose. I hear no pulses (clicks) from the injectors. I used my wife's stethoscope while she cranked it. It still runs for a second on starting fluid but once its gone, it dies. I wiggled all connections while cranking with no good results.
Where is the crankshaft position sensor on a justy? The book does not say anything about one.
With a bad ECU, wouldn't it still run in degraded or limp mode?
I left the key turned on and disconnected the negative cable. When I hook it back up, the fuel pump runs for a second like it should and I can feel and hear a clicking at each injector. I assume this is the squirt to help it start. Is it possible it is still not getting a signal to pulse? I swapped out the ECU with a different one and it still did not change so I went back to the original.
The manual is kind of unclear about some things. If I connect the test leads, will it throw codes through the check engine light that would indicate anything?
What leads should be connected for the test connections and what should not be connected at all times? There is a set of blue ones and a set of black ones both unhooked. If you connect the black ones, there is a ticking sound somewhere in the dash like a clock.
Remember that I bought it un running and at a mechanics shop after it had not started for about 5 years. I don't know if it did not start about 5 years ago so that is why it sat or if someone just let it sit until the gas went bad then blindly tried to start it thus ruining the fuel pump and such.
Someone said they had wiring issues for the mpfi engines, where was the typical location for that?
I am stumped, I do not want to throw money at it until it starts although would be happy it runs but at this point will try anything. Is there anything else that would stop a signal to pulse injectors? Thanks for the help. I need it.
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Post by new2justys on May 10, 2015 17:34:30 GMT -5
Two other things....
No on the Noid light. I don't have a set but do you think that would be a smart way to go next? I can get a set.
What and where is the TDC and the cylinder distinction sensor?
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Post by Armageddous on May 11, 2015 0:28:04 GMT -5
Here's the quick version of your "crank sensor", "tdc" and "cylinder distinction". The Justy uses sequential injection, meaning each injector fires individually as opposed to batch firing where 2 or more are pulsed in unison. This is necessary (and complex considering the year it came out) because of the number of cylinders. Both being odd and so few, the injector timing is critical. That being said, the computer manages this by having 2 cam sensors acting as a crank sensor (essentially). The TDC sensor is a single tooth that is meant to tell the ECU that the #1 cylinder is at TDC. This is how it knows what order to fire the injectors in. The Cylinder Distinction sensor has 3 teeth, one for each cylinder. By knowing where #1 is, the ECU fires the injectors in sequence based on these next 3 events. You NEED to know if the ECU is trying to fire the injectors. It is imperative. Find an LED that can handle 12volts or find an LED and Google a current limiting resistor calculator for it. Place the anode (+) of the LED on the WHT/BLK wire of the injector and the cathode (-, resistor side) on the other wire (colour respective to current injector). Crank the engine and see if it blinks. If it blinks, replace the injectors. If it does not, check the wiring between the Cylinder Distinction sensor and the ECU. Are you POSITIVE you have spark? An engine will run on ether with weak or absent spark. Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 12, 2015 21:39:45 GMT -5
I will check the spark. I did not know it would run without it. I do know it seems really weak when it does. I may have forgotten but I did replace the injectors when I saw how bad the gas was. So, it has new injectors, new distributor, new rotor, plugs, cap and wires. I will check for spark. I will feel really stupid but be so happy to get her living again. I did buy a set of noid lights and will try that. Will that be the same as what you are talking of with the led? If not, I will do that after I rule out spark. I also bought all new fuses and will switch out whatever ones involve the ignition. Someone did have a stereo wired into the fuse block by shoving a wire into the fuse block. I will start there. Thank you for your help! I really, really appreciate it.
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Post by Armageddous on May 13, 2015 9:49:27 GMT -5
Noid lights are leds. They just have protection built in, and are really bright.
The best way to check spark that I've found is to put a spark plug on the end of the coil wire and ground it to the engine. Crank it over and watch for a good blue spark thru the plug. It should be firing very quickly.
Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 17, 2015 11:55:02 GMT -5
Okay, rain finally stopped and I could check for spark. It was weird but I pulled a plug wire and put a plug in it. It shocked the crap out of me. Tried it again and made sure not to hold the boot and no spark in the plug. Pulled the coil wire and held it about 1 inch from the center tower of the distributor and it sparked strong and blue all the way. Went back again, no spark at the plug. Leads me to think the dist. cap not working. It is brand new, plugs new, wires new, distributor new. What the ? I thought maybe it has a bad ground but even touched against the ground, a plug would not fire. NOW WHAT?
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Post by Armageddous on May 17, 2015 23:54:30 GMT -5
Pull the distributor cap and make sure the distributor turns when the engine cranks.
Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 24, 2015 9:33:17 GMT -5
Okay, I see the rotor is turning so the timing belt is still intact. Now, while I was doing that, I went back to check the spark at the plugs. I made sure of all grounds etc so the plug was grounded and it would still not spark. I pulled the coil wire off the distributor cap and cranked it. The spark is pretty weak and was only about 1/4 of an inch. (although it was still enough to shock the crap out of me) I think that is it. I never suspected the coil since I assumed it was firing when running on starting fluid. I thought the first time it had a fat blue spark because it shocked the hell out of me and I did not try it again. Is it possible the coil is weak or the igniter that it will not have enough juice to go through the plug? Thanks for your help, I know I have been rather a pain.
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Post by Armageddous on May 24, 2015 17:30:50 GMT -5
Probably a bad coil.
Did you verify you have fuel? Put it all back together and crank it over for about 5 seconds then pull the spark plugs out and see if they are covered in fuel.
Terry
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Post by new2justys on May 27, 2015 23:31:57 GMT -5
It is still not getting fuel. The thing will try to run if you spray starting fluid in it and will continue to try afterwards. What I think is that it is only getting fuel in 1 or two cylinders. I could not hear clicking with my stethoscope on #3. It seems rather random. I will use a noid light this weekend to see for sure. If it is an injector problem, knowing it is getting fuel to the rail, it is a new pump and tank/filter and injectors. I am not sure what it could be next. I can try to test the pressure. What about the regulators on the rail ends. Could they be bad or blocked? Sometimes it seems as if fuel is getting into one cylinder because it will sputter like it wants to start without fluid. Thanks again for help.
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Post by new2justys on May 31, 2015 20:20:54 GMT -5
New update:
I am getting pulse from the injectors. I may not be getting all of them but I do know that it is still a spark issue. I pulled all the plugs and tried grounding them while connected to plug wires. I still only get occasional spark and only one. In fact some times after it sets for a bit, it will fire on one cylinder, one time. It is getting a good fat blue consistent spark from the coil wire when grounded. It is like it is not getting sent through the distributor cap to the rotor. Should I try another distributor cap and rotor? All fuses have been replaced, the three links have been looked at. The only link that I have not changed is the 60 amp one. It looks good though. Any other suggestions? I just don't get it. Everything seems to be working and has been replaced. HELP.
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