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Post by bikkerider on Jun 22, 2014 15:27:51 GMT -5
I've looked everywhere for information on my air conditioner in my 1993 Subaru Justy DL. I have the 1991 Service Manuals that are available and they have come in handy, but there is no information for air conditioning in the manuals. It cools but not great. I was thinking about pulling a vacuum and replacing the drier, compressor oil and refrigerant with new. How much R134A(ounces)and what type compressor oil and amount (ounces) would I need to have a fresh recharge. Thanks for any help.
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Post by moemoney313 on Jun 25, 2014 18:54:39 GMT -5
Sounds like your Justy was converted to R134. I have a 1994 Justy DL with the Wynn airconditioning system that required 22 oz of R12. I had mine converted too! R12 is very hard to find and, if you do find it, it will cost you both arms and both legs! I definitely did not like my conversion! In stop and go driving I had to roll my windows down. My compressor was making a lot more noise than cool air! I only had three cylinders of which two were needed to turn the compressor! Finally it quit! I was told it needed an expansion valve, that was located in the passenger compartment behind the glovebox, a new compressor, and a receiver dryer located on the passenger side next to the radiator. For how much it cost ... not worth it! On top of that, they were going to put R134 back in ... NO THANKS! I went ahead and ordered the expansion valve and receiver dryer. I was going to get a used compressor from the junkyard, but a Justy is hard to find here! Someone suggested I take the compressor off and have it examined. I did that and to my surprise I was told it was still good! They cleaned it and gave it back to me. My next problem was to figure out what type of refrigerant I was going to put into it. NO R134 PERIOD! Searching the different hot rod and classic car forums I found I was not the only one who did not like R134. There were a lot of horror stories from compressors going bad to cars catching on fire and burning to the ground! My Justy was designed for R12 ... so now what? After my parts came I saw where my AC hoses went into the firewall on the passenger side. I looked under the dash and found by pulling the glovebox I could get to the box containing the expansion valve. The hardest part was pulling the glovebox. It would be good to take notes and draw pictures of how the brackets that hold the glovebox in go ... unless you have photographic memory ... I found out that I don't! To do the job right you will need an O-ring kit which I got from Autozone for under $5.00. I was hoping to find some R12 so I had purchased a one quart bottle of Four Season mineral oil for R12 systems. The other is Ester and Pag. R134 will not work with mineral oil. With R134 you have to use Ester or Pag. I was told to stay away from PAG! With whatever lubricant you decide, lube your O-rings when you replace them. After disconnecting the firewall hoses, there are only three screws holding the AC box in. There are clamps that connect the AC box to the ductwork. Once these are loose, slide to the side and out comes the AC box. In the picture you will see the defroster duct in front of the AC box ... it pops out easy! In the picture you will see little c clips holding the AC box together. A screwdriver will pop these out. They are on all four sides of the AC box. Once you have these out just pry the AC box apart. Try to keep the insulation intact and plug any place air will leak out with foam tape. You want air entering from the fan to exit out to the heater core. I also wrapped the ducts with duct tape. That will make the clamps connecting to the ducts air tight ... need little hands to do this! It was the year before last when I did this but I believe there is one wire that runs along the top of the AC box that will need to be disconnected. Just watch carefully as you take the AC box out. Before putting things back together I flushed the hoses with alcohol. Of course you can use brake clean or similar solvent. I then hit it with compressed air. The receiver dryer was next to be replaced after adding 2 oz of mineral oil. This is where I made a huge mistake ... luckily not fatal! Someone told me I should add 10 oz 0f lube to my empty system. For a Honda yes ... for a Justy NO! There was so much oil in the system it would not take a 6 oz can of refrigerant. I had to take everything apart and drain it. I did not flush, just drain. I collected a little over 5 3/4 oz, so I had a little over 4 oz still in there. That does not seem like a lot until you realize how small the Justy system is. This is the refrigerant I used. This is their website: www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/14/t/refrigerantThat is not R12! It is not R134 either! You local AC shop will not install this for you. It is illegal! You can buy it but it is not suppose to go into your car! I pulled vacuum for a good 30 minutes and then added 1 can which was 6 oz. The compressor kicked on and was very quiet! It wasn't until I put my hand over the vent ... WOW! My employer was hunting that day and I had him check it! It was cold ... and it was idling! Low side was a little over 35 psi, and high side was right around 150 psi. Out side temp was in the high 80s. By my calculation it should take 7 oz of this refrigerant for the 2nd generation Justy which take the Wynn AC System with 22 oz R12 refill. This is my car so I will not be taking it in for AC service. Although I will share this info with you, you do it at your own risk! So many custom rods and imports are using this stuff. It has a pine scent so if you do get a leak inside your car you will smell it. IF you smoke , 7 oz will not go BOOM ... it will go poof. Have you ever lite a gas stove? I wasn't going to post it, but if you feel this is too much I will be glad to delete it. Wish you all well!
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Post by gearheadeh on Jun 26, 2014 9:04:10 GMT -5
Sounds like your Justy was converted to R134. I have a 1994 Justy DL with the Wynn airconditioning system that required 22 oz of R12. I had mine converted too! R12 is very hard to find and, if you do find it, it will cost you both arms and both legs! I definitely did not like my conversion! In stop and go driving I had to roll my windows down. My compressor was making a lot more noise than cool air! I only had three cylinders of which two were needed to turn the compressor! Finally it quit! I was told it needed an expansion valve, that was located in the passenger compartment behind the glovebox, a new compressor, and a receiver dryer located on the passenger side next to the radiator. For how much it cost ... not worth it! On top of that, they were going to put R134 back in ... NO THANKS! I went ahead and ordered the expansion valve and receiver dryer. I was going to get a used compressor from the junkyard, but a Justy is hard to find here! Someone suggested I take the compressor off and have it examined. I did that and to my surprise I was told it was still good! They cleaned it and gave it back to me. My next problem was to figure out what type of refrigerant I was going to put into it. NO R134 PERIOD! Searching the different hot rod and classic car forums I found I was not the only one who did not like R134. There were a lot of horror stories from compressors going bad to cars catching on fire and burning to the ground! My Justy was designed for R12 ... so now what? After my parts came I saw where my AC hoses went into the firewall on the passenger side. I looked under the dash and found by pulling the glovebox I could get to the box containing the expansion valve. The hardest part was pulling the glovebox. It would be good to take notes and draw pictures of how the brackets that hold the glovebox in go ... unless you have photographic memory ... I found out that I don't! To do the job right you will need an O-ring kit which I got from Autozone for under $5.00. I was hoping to find some R12 so I had purchased a one quart bottle of Four Season mineral oil for R12 systems. The other is Ester and Pag. R134 will not work with mineral oil. With R134 you have to use Ester or Pag. I was told to stay away from PAG! With whatever lubricant you decide, lube your O-rings when you replace them. After disconnecting the firewall hoses, there are only three screws holding the AC box in. There are clamps that connect the AC box to the ductwork. Once these are loose, slide to the side and out comes the AC box. In the picture you will see the defroster duct in front of the AC box ... it pops out easy! In the picture you will see little c clips holding the AC box together. A screwdriver will pop these out. They are on all four sides of the AC box. Once you have these out just pry the AC box apart. Try to keep the insulation intact and plug any place air will leak out with foam tape. You want air entering from the fan to exit out to the heater core. I also wrapped the ducts with duct tape. That will make the clamps connecting to the ducts air tight ... need little hands to do this! It was the year before last when I did this but I believe there is one wire that runs along the top of the AC box that will need to be disconnected. Just watch carefully as you take the AC box out. Before putting things back together I flushed the hoses with alcohol. Of course you can use brake clean or similar solvent. I then hit it with compressed air. The receiver dryer was next to be replaced after adding 2 oz of mineral oil. This is where I made a huge mistake ... luckily not fatal! Someone told me I should add 10 oz 0f lube to my empty system. For a Honda yes ... for a Justy NO! There was so much oil in the system it would not take a 6 oz can of refrigerant. I had to take everything apart and drain it. I did not flush, just drain. I collected a little over 5 3/4 oz, so I had a little over 4 oz still in there. That does not seem like a lot until you realize how small the Justy system is. This is the refrigerant I used. This is their website: www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/14/t/refrigerantThat is not R12! It is not R134 either! You local AC shop will not install this for you. It is illegal! You can buy it but it is not suppose to go into your car! I pulled vacuum for a good 30 minutes and then added 1 can which was 6 oz. The compressor kicked on and was very quiet! It wasn't until I put my hand over the vent ... WOW! My employer was hunting that day and I had him check it! It was cold ... and it was idling! Low side was a little over 35 psi, and high side was right around 150 psi. Out side temp was in the high 80s. By my calculation it should take 7 oz of this refrigerant for the 2nd generation Justy which take the Wynn AC System with 22 oz R12 refill. This is my car so I will not be taking it in for AC service. Although I will share this info with you, you do it at your own risk! So many custom rods and imports are using this stuff. It has a pine scent so if you do get a leak inside your car you will smell it. IF you smoke , 7 oz will not go BOOM ... it will go poof. Have you ever lite a gas stove? I wasn't going to post it, but if you feel this is too much I will be glad to delete it.Wish you all well! Delete this.. .. .. NO Way this is epic, Thanks for the great post!
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Post by moemoney313 on Jun 26, 2014 18:29:42 GMT -5
Thank you!
I forgot ... there is a rubber water drain connected to the AC box going through the floorboard. Do not forget to replace it or you will have a wet floor like I did!
Thanks again!
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Post by bikkerider on Jun 26, 2014 20:49:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the information! Heck no, please don't delete it. I don't think my system was converted to R134a as the low pressure and high pressure inlets fit R134a fittings directly. Wouldn't a retrofitted R12 system have adapters for R134a on the inlets? I guess I better figure out which compressor I have first, and go from there. If it's like yours, I will do exactly what you did. I did manage to get a photo of the back side of my compressor, I was trying to identify which one I had a few days back. I noticed that the drier in my Justy has a plug going into it and all the replacement driers that I've seen on Rock Auto don't have a plug in. I guess I would need to order a drier from Subaru, so I could plug into it. Thanks again.
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Post by bikkerider on Jun 26, 2014 20:51:15 GMT -5
let me try this
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Post by bikkerider on Jun 26, 2014 22:36:24 GMT -5
Then again my a/c probably was retrofitted. They must have changed the original hoses with hoses with R134a fittings when the system was retrofitted. I just got through looking at my owner's manual and found this for the first time since I bought my little Justy. It came with factory air. I looked under the hood again and no a/c sticker anywhere.
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Post by moemoney313 on Jun 27, 2014 12:33:19 GMT -5
What you have is a Wynn compressor system, the same as mine. That bolt in the center mounts the hoses to the compressor. Behind it are two O-rings. Are you able to get a pressure reading on your running AC system? R134 is highly corrosive and it damaged my expansion valve. Your pressure readings will let you know whether your expansion valve is working properly! To be honest, I do not know what refrigerant you have in your system. I changed the charging ports on my Justy from the R12 ports to the R134 ports. They just screw on. The gauges I have are for R134 and it is cheaper to change the ports than buy adapters. I replaced the valve core too because mine leaked! These are valve cores made for AC system, NOT TIRES! They are not the same! On your dryer, that switch on your receiver dryer is the pressure switch that screws off your old dryer and you screw on to the new one. Without that switch, your compressor will not kick in. You can bypass it ... but that is asking for trouble! I got mine at the dealer too! It has a welded bracket that mounts to the radiator support. First you need to determine if it really has R134 in it! If the system has never been opened to the air, you may be able to vacuum it down and recharge it with HC12a, without replacing your dryer! It is compatible with all lubricants. If it has been opened to the air you will need to flush your system. PAG is very acidic when exposed to moisture in the air! That will burn up your compressor and ruin your expansion valve. Because your system is still working, it might just be low in refrigerant. A soap water solution over your ports will bubble if there is a leak. If you crack the system you are going to loose lubricant! You may want to recover using a machine, replace your valve cores, vacuum, and then add HC12a. I bought a case of 12 and I still have 8 left! It has been two years since I last serviced it! If you give me a reading on your running ac system I may be able to determine if you are low or your expansion valve is going bad. Whatever you decide, GOOD LUCK!
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Post by bikkerider on Jun 27, 2014 19:05:11 GMT -5
I am a dufus there are those screw on adapters on my hoses as well, lol. It has R134a in it. That was one of the selling points when I purchased it, also I put one can in it the other day as well. I purchased some of the harbor freight a/c gauges. They worked great. When I checked the pressures, they were off indicating that it was low. I added one whole can and got the pressures to read 40 psi low side and 250 psi high side. It was around 90 degrees that day. Like I said earlier, it does cool fairly good, but I would like it cooler. I'm happy that you were able to identify my compressor for me, thanks. I had ran across some information about the subaru compressors that had the pulse limiter switch on them. I'm glad my compressor is not one of those. They sounded craptastic. It appears that I could do the same thing that you did. Does evacuating the system remove all the oil? How much oil would I need to add you think? I saw an endwrench .pdf that showed a mechanic pouring the oil out of the compressor and measuring it. Here's that link: www.northursalia.com/techdocs/pdf/vent/ac1.pdf also I had read that ester oil was the most compatible oil. That's pretty wild that 6oz of the refrigerant you used is equivalent to 16oz of R134a. ran across this link from dusty's justy www.dustysjustys.com/93ac.htm
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Post by moemoney313 on Jun 28, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -5
I am a dufus there are those screw on adapters on my hoses as well, lol. It has R134a in it. That was one of the selling points when I purchased it, also I put one can in it the other day as well. I purchased some of the harbor freight a/c gauges. They worked great. When I checked the pressures, they were off indicating that it was low. I added one whole can and got the pressures to read 40 psi low side and 250 psi high side. It was around 90 degrees that day. Like I said earlier, it does cool fairly good, but I would like it cooler. I'm happy that you were able to identify my compressor for me, thanks. I had ran across some information about the subaru compressors that had the pulse limiter switch on them. I'm glad my compressor is not one of those. They sounded craptastic. It appears that I could do the same thing that you did. Does evacuating the system remove all the oil? How much oil would I need to add you think? I saw an endwrench .pdf that showed a mechanic pouring the oil out of the compressor and measuring it. Here's that link: www.northursalia.com/techdocs/pdf/vent/ac1.pdf also I had read that ester oil was the most compatible oil. That's pretty wild that 6oz of the refrigerant you used is equivalent to 16oz of R134a. ran across this link from dusty's justy www.dustysjustys.com/93ac.htmBikkerider, from what you tell me, your system is working. I suspect you can get it to get cooler with a recharge of HC12a. The reason I had to go as far as I did was because my system was not working at all! As long as your system has not been open to air you should get by with just adding a couple of ounces of Ester, vacuum down and charge with 7 oz of HC12a. Ester will mix with Pag. If you go my route with the take apart and flush, go with the mineral oil. You will have to replace the receiver dryer because Ester and Pag are not compatible with mineral oil. Ester and Pag are synthetic oils but they absorb moisture from the air and become corrosive with R134 as the refrigerant! Pag is more corrosive! Mineral oil will not absorb moisture and with the HC12a will neutralize any corrosion in your system. Your system is working and it sounds like it has not been exposed to air! Yours is the perfect system for a drop in!
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Post by bikkerider on Jun 28, 2014 17:21:07 GMT -5
Thanks for all the helpful info. I will try the drop in method first, if I'm still not satisfied with the results I will do the take apart and flush method that you did. I will let you know how it goes. thanks again
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Post by moemoney313 on Jul 1, 2014 13:00:42 GMT -5
Here is a site with comparison information and instructions: autorefrigerants.com/Envirotechnical.htmMake sure you order the Industrial version which in my case is much colder than the regular. Do not overcharge! You should be able to feel the difference after just 1 can. Remember your system holds 22 oz of R12, which is just 7 oz with this refrigerant. They also sell 2 oz cans of oil that can be used with your recharge hoses. I am hoping your expansion valve respond to the new refrigerant. If after 1 can you cannot feel a difference, I would not add any more! This is the third engine for my Justy, and each time my engine was changed out I am sure my AC system was opened. I went from R12 to R134. I was not around when my first engine was put in. When I got to it there was no refrigerant in the system, so I had it converted! The Justy AC system is a small system and, to me, did not work as well with R134 as it did with R12. Finally my expansion valve went out and I tried my first conversion with a product called RED TEK 12a. They were selling it at a local discount store. It was better than the R134 but still not as cold as I wanted it! Mine you, I may have overcharged it by pulling a vacuum. This product was to be installed with no vacuum! I threw a rod on my second engine and while I waited for my short block to come I took apart the rest of my AC system to flush and put in the mineral oil and change out the dryer. To my surprise the local discount store no longer sold the RED TEK! I found out I had too much oil in my system when I drove my car to a shop in Nashville that installed HC12a. To read this it sounds like it took, at the most, a couple of months ... between engines, more like several years! I made a lot of mistakes and spent a lot of money! That is why I am hoping you can benefit from my mistakes and get the results I got without any of the hardships. WISHING YOU VERY COLD AIR!
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Post by bikkerider on Jul 1, 2014 19:13:07 GMT -5
Thanks moemoney you've been a great help. I went ahead and ordered 12 cans as the hazmat fees were the same for 1 can as well as a couple of the 2oz oil cans. I'll note the temp differences before and after. If not satisfied I'll go the whole recharge route that you laid out. thanks again
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Post by bikkerider on Jul 4, 2014 12:12:49 GMT -5
Moemoney313, I was wondering how much of a vacuum did you pull before adding the es industrial to your system. Did you try to get a 30 inch vacuum or maybe a little less before adding? or did you follow the instructions that were on a link you posted? I'm not sure if these are the same instructions for the es industrial or not. Here's step 2 of the instructions.
2 - If desired, pull a vacuum. After pulling a vacuum of no more than 10 inches, do not charge under vacuum. ENVIRO-SAFE does not become caustic if some moisture is present. Charging under a high vacuum can result in an overcharge. Any overcharge may cause loss of cooling efficiency.
Did you follow this step? or did you go ahead and get the best vacuum you could before adding. One more thing does our Justy a/c systems have a orifice tube that can be replaced? and did you replace yours and how?
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Post by moemoney313 on Jul 4, 2014 19:48:52 GMT -5
Sorry, that is for the regular es12a. The industrial you can pull a vacuum. If you add the 2 ounce can of lubricant you will need the space to add 7 ounces of the industrial es12a. After adding one can check your gauges. All you need is a little over one ounce more from another can. Do not put the whole can in your system or YOU WILL OVERCHARGE! Your low side pressure should be around 35 psi and you should have cold air coming out your vents. Make sure your heater control is working and is off. Our Justy using the Wynn system uses an expansion valve located in the box behind the glovebox. An expansion valve is better than an orifice tube when it is working properly. And yes, I did replace mine. Pull your vacuum. Add your oil under vacuum. Then add 7 oz of Industrial ES12A Let me know how cold it is!
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Post by bikkerider on Jul 5, 2014 11:32:32 GMT -5
thanks for clarifying and i will let you know how cold it is
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