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Post by joemiolli on Mar 8, 2010 12:33:52 GMT -5
Hello guys, I am finishing the engine rebuild on my 92 Justy ECVT 4x4. and have a few questions regarding the timing of the crank with the camshaft, and the firing order. After I installed the timing belt, Crank and camshaft at reference/index marks, The # 3 Piston is at TDC /and the valves are closed ( Assuming #1 cylinder is the one by the Front Pulley and # 3 at the Flywheel end) Now I always assumed that when crank and cam were set at reference/index marks the # 1 Piston would be at TDC ( after I installed new Timing belt and tensioner)but in my case # 3 piston is at TDC valves closed and all waiting for a spark. now at the distributor end, the rotor points at # 1 Piston/cylinder ( when you look at the distributor cap # 1 Cylinder is at the top and the # 3 somewhere in the bottom of the dist. cap, I can reverse the cap and make the # 3 Cylinder marking on the cap be in the up position, thus firing # 3 Cylinder which is at TDC . Now can some experienced guy point at my mistake, or tell me the way this is supposed to be, since I am confused with #3 piston at TDC when all sprockets are set to their index marks in the engine. I always thought it would be the # 1 at TDC.. maybe I am just drowning in a glass of water ;D...and can't see the simple solution in front of me.. Please help, thanks in advance. ( first time ever rebuilding a Subaru Justy Engine)
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Post by keko on Mar 8, 2010 12:43:04 GMT -5
Install the tensioner, spring and mounting bolts. Rotate the tensioner to the fully retracted position and tighten the mounting bolts.
Install the key into the crankshaft keyway, if removed. Install the crankshaft sprocket.
Install the camshaft pulley with the dowel pin lined up with the hole in the sprocket. Install the three mounting bolts and tighten to 9 ft. lbs. (12 Nm).
Align the timing marks as follows:
Align the mark on the crankshaft sprocket with the dot on the crankcase cover below the sprocket. The keyway should be pointing almost straight up.
Align the hole in the camshaft pulley with the notch cut into the top of the rear timing cover.
Ensure that each rocker arm can be moved.
If the old timing belt is being used install the belt with the direction arrow pointed in the correct direction.
Loosen the tensioner mounting bolts 1/2 turn and allow the tensioner to seat against the belt.
Tighten the tensioner bolt below the adjusting wheel first. Tighten the other bolt. Check to be sure all sprocket and housing matching marks are in agreement.
Install the timing belt cover.
Install the crankshaft pulley and bolts. Tighten the crankshaft bolts to 58-72 ft. lbs. (78-98 Nm).
Check and adjust the valve clearance.
Install the accessory drive belts and tension to specification. 24.
Connect the negative battery cable.
Start the engine and allow it to reach operating temperature. Check, and if necessary, adjust the ignition timing.
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Post by joemiolli on Mar 8, 2010 13:28:29 GMT -5
Thanks Keko, I have followed this procedure, and my question was about which piston is at TDC when all this marks are aligned? I thought it would be piston #1, but in my engine, is piston # 3 at TDC , unless what I see as #3 is actually # 1, ... is #1 Cylinder on this engine the one by the front pulley/dampener? or is it the one by the flywheel end? I assumed #1 is by the front pulley dampener and #3 by the flywheel.. My confusion arises from the fact that I expect #1 Piston to be at TDC ( considering I regard the piston by the front of the engine at front pulley dampener to be # 1 Piston) when the crank and the camshaft marks are aligned to their respectives reference marks as outlined in your response. Thanks for your help
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Post by Sævar Örn on Mar 8, 2010 13:59:52 GMT -5
The #3 piston is at top dead center when aligned properly on the bottom end. Marking should be downwards, on the head, the marking should be upwards, the camshaft can only be put on the mark one way, but the crankshaft can be put in two ways, with #1 and #2 at TDC= WRONG or #3 at TDC = CORRECT.
Good luck
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Post by joemiolli on Mar 8, 2010 17:23:32 GMT -5
Thanks a lot Sævar, your reply was very helpful, now I have to figure out why the rotor was pointing at #1 cylinder marking in the distributor cap, when the rest of the engine was properly timed, maybe I just have to remove and reinstall the distributor cap 180` Degrees from the initial installation.. I will try this..Thanks a million.
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Post by Sævar Örn on Mar 8, 2010 19:43:54 GMT -5
I think the rotor can only go on one way, but the cap can go both ways.
It should be firing on the 3rd when aligned properly I guess, valves closed and moving into exhaust stroke
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Post by joemiolli on Mar 8, 2010 19:47:59 GMT -5
Yes the rotor, can only go one way, I will try with the Distributor cap out by 180 degrees, #3 cylinder in dist cap in the up position and # 1 to the bottom.right now is installed the other way around. thanks a lot you have been very helpful.
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Post by Sævar Örn on Mar 12, 2010 16:02:52 GMT -5
I may be wrong on this, someone told me cyl 3 is finishing exhaust stroke and starting to open intake valve on the way down again, but i can not clarify this information.
Just thought you should know.
Sævar-
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Post by Sævar Örn on Mar 12, 2010 16:03:45 GMT -5
The 3 cylinder engines are really getting me confused, usually I am quite mechanically inclined, but when it comes to this engine, I feel really dumb, but it´s fun to learn new things. Different things.
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 12, 2010 17:34:59 GMT -5
**Sævar Örn**, indeed these little 3-cylider engines feel awkward at first. Let me help clarify. With the crank and cam on their respective timing marks you should notice: 1. The #3 piston should be a the top of it's stroke (I remove the spark plug to check). 2. The #3 should also be at Absolute TDC (beginning of the 4-stroke ICE cycle), meaning the #3 cylinder intake valves should open next (stroke-1). 3. The distributor rotor should be 180° away from firing position for cylinder #3. If you get past these three checks, you are done . This is my recollection, I changed my timing belt last October. -RRJ
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Post by nebraskajusty on Mar 4, 2012 15:04:32 GMT -5
**Sævar Örn**, indeed these little 3-cylider engines feel awkward at first. Let me help clarify. With the crank and cam on their respective timing marks you should notice: 1. The #3 piston should be a the top of it's stroke (I remove the spark plug to check). 2. The #3 should also be at Absolute TDC (beginning of the 4-stroke ICE cycle), meaning the #3 cylinder intake valves should open next (stroke-1). 3. The distributor rotor should be 180° away from firing position for cylinder #3. If you get past these three checks, you are done . This is my recollection, I changed my timing belt last October. -RRJ This has been the most informative post on this whole site.I have been banging my head against the wall wondering why my rotor was 180 degrees off.Thank you maybe I can get my baby running again.
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dogoman
A Boxer engine will fit in a Justy, its called a WRX
Posts: 445
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Post by dogoman on Mar 4, 2012 22:50:12 GMT -5
No 1 is nearest crank pulley, No3 is nearest distributor ALL timing marks refer to NUMBER 1 AT TDC FIRING forget everything else, treat it like any other engine.
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 5, 2012 10:53:15 GMT -5
... ALL timing marks refer to NUMBER 1 AT TDC FIRING forget everything else, treat it like any other engine. Wrong... Only the mark on the "removable" timing cover refers to #1 (used for setting idle "fire" timing when actually running). In fact ALL other timing marks cast into the EF12 engine front are for aligning the timing sprockets when installing the timing belt. This has come up many times in the couple years I have been conversing on this site. I just took notes and chalked it up to 3 cylinder thing. -RRJ
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dogoman
A Boxer engine will fit in a Justy, its called a WRX
Posts: 445
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Post by dogoman on Mar 5, 2012 18:41:02 GMT -5
... ALL timing marks refer to NUMBER 1 AT TDC FIRING forget everything else, treat it like any other engine. Wrong... Only the mark on the "removable" timing cover refers to #1 (used for setting idle "fire" timing when actually running). In fact ALL other timing marks cast into the EF12 engine front are for aligning the timing sprockets when installing the timing belt. This has come up many times in the couple years I have been conversing on this site. I just took notes and chalked it up to 3 cylinder thing. -RRJ correct, and cam and ignition timing are all done on #1 cylinder. Due to the 120 degree offset on the crank, you will also have #3 looking like its at tdc as well, which just confuses the issue and makes everybody think #3 cyl hs something to do with timing.....it doesn't.
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 6, 2012 10:47:18 GMT -5
Just for fun, I went checked gap on my valves last night. **dogoman**, sorry friend but there is no illusion as to which cylinder is TDC when you align the cam sprocket to it's "belt" timing mark. Unlike every other motor I have worked on, cylinder #3 is at firing position when you align the sprockets for the timing belt marks. Make a very clear distinction that there are cast marks to set "belt" timing that have nothing to do with "ignition" timing. You are confusing the two. Take any last words to the design engineers at Subaru.
-RRJ
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dogoman
A Boxer engine will fit in a Justy, its called a WRX
Posts: 445
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Post by dogoman on Mar 6, 2012 18:28:31 GMT -5
well, on my engine, the cast mark on the cam lines up with the notch on the bearing housing nearest the cam pulley with no1 cylinder (thats the cylinder under the cam mark nearest to the crank pulley) at TDC as indicated by the 0 degree mark on the crank marks, mark on crank belt pulley is in line with mark at bottom of front engine cover and the hole in cam pulley lines up with mark on cam belt cover..... beats me why you would use the cylinder nearest the distributor to do the timing from when all the marks are at the other end.
there are 2 other marks on the crank pulley which are the marks you use to determine the valve lash check points for #2 and #3 cyls, as it puts the cam followers in the correct places on the heel of the cam for correct adjustment.
If i timed an engine like you describe, i end up with #1 on compression and the distributor rotor facing #3 plug lead.
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 6, 2012 21:58:03 GMT -5
**dogoman** I am tired of explaining this to you. The crank and cam reference the #3 when you install the timing belt, I am not talking about the marks on the cam shaft, rather the cam sprocket (where the timing belt goes). Read the FSM if you continue to have trouble with this. Nice attempt to snark an insulting reminder of where you can stick your #1 cylinder "(thats the cylinder under the cam mark nearest to the crank pulley)". After reading your wealth of "last word" and "one up" posts strewn across this site, I think you just like getting the last word. I also think you will keep arguing instead of admitting that you do not know more than the engineers that designed the EF12 engine. Then again I forget that you have a special 1986 model that fits a WRX engine.
-last word
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dogoman
A Boxer engine will fit in a Justy, its called a WRX
Posts: 445
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Post by dogoman on Mar 6, 2012 23:15:02 GMT -5
And i'm telling you the marks on mine line up when #1 is at TDC on the firing stroke....I should know, I had the sump off when i did the timing on the bench and confirmed it because I have seen other 3 cyl engines use #3 as the reference cylinder, and mine doesn't do that, it uses #1.
Maybe they changed it between the southern hemisphere EF10's and the US EF12's, who knows, but as an engine builder with 20 plus years experience, I DO know how to time an engine.
If as you say, the cam timing references are based on the #3 cylinder, can you please explain why when the pulley marks line up, the valve adjusters are loose on #1 and the lobes on the cam are pointing towards the #1 cylinder? Surely this means #1 is on its compression / firing stroke?
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Post by RedRooJusty on Mar 7, 2012 3:50:11 GMT -5
OK OK this is the EF10. You are the second member to report that the EF10 timing references the #1. Member **magnus** has a Sambar (EF10) mini-bus that gave him a great deal of trouble in regard to correct timing.
I think we are both right.
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SeattleJusty
No, a boxer will not fit in a Justy.
Posts: 1,587
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Post by SeattleJusty on Mar 7, 2012 5:25:03 GMT -5
No 1 is nearest crank pulley, No3 is nearest distributor ALL timing marks refer to NUMBER 1 AT TDC FIRING forget everything else, treat it like any other engine. correct, and cam and ignition timing are all done on #1 cylinder. Due to the 120 degree offset on the crank, you will also have #3 looking like its at tdc as well, which just confuses the issue and makes everybody think #3 cyl hs something to do with timing.....it doesn't. well, on my engine, . . . Maybe they changed it between the southern hemisphere EF10's and the US EF12's, . . . "forget everything else, treat it like any other engine." So in other words, stop actually trying to learn something. Just do whatever Dogo says. "Due to the 120 degree offset on the crank, you will also have #3 looking like its at tdc as well"That is hands down the worst conversational judo I have ever seen. Speaking scientifically, if you have a 120 degree crankshaft then it would be freaking impossible for #3 piston to appear as though it were at top-dead-center if piston #1 were to be anywhere near top-dead center. . . . unlike an inline four cylinder engine where the first piston and last piston will both appear to be at TDC at the same time. "well, on my engine, . . ."That was the voice in your head, that was your wake up call. You hit the snooze button instead. "Maybe they changed it between the southern hemisphere EF10's and the US EF12's, . . ."And the rooster crows! Guess what I just finished this morning. . . a complete top end rebuild on my EF12. Guess what I did whilst turning me spanners. . . I took photographs! From the Fuji Heavy Industries factory service manual: Now look Dogo, ordinarily I like to leave someone a way out so that they can save face, but we're already beyond that thanks to the "last word" contest you had with Redroo. Right now I'm just here to defend the guys who were correct in the first place. Everything you said was true. . . for your EF10 engine I suppose. Where you went wrong was to rudely dismiss other peoples' correct knowledge which comes directly from first hand experience and the bible itself; the Fuji Heavy industries service manual. PERIODIC MAINTENANCE SERVICES Section 1, chapter 5, page 5
[2] Camshaft drive belt
REMOVAL
1) Loosen alternator mounting bolts and remove V-belt. 2) Using crank & camshaft pulley wrench (499205500), loosen (do not remove) crankshaft bolts. 3) Turn crank pulley until #3 piston is set to TDC on exhaust stroke 4) remove crank pulley bolts and crank pulley. 5) Remove cam belt cover 6) Loosen tensioner mounting bolts by using socket wrench (499985800) 7) With tensioner fully turned to slacken belt, tighten mounting bolts. 8) Remove camshaft drive pulley plate and camshaft drivebelt.
INSTALLATION
1) Using Crank & Camshaft pulley Wrench, align marks on camshaft drive and driven pulleys, respectively, as shown in figures on the right. 2) Remove air cleaner and rocker cover. 3) Loosen valve adjusting screws on free rocker arm. 4) Install cam belt. Loosen bolts which secure tensioner, and apply tension to the belt. 5) Tighten tensioner bolts by using socket wrench (499985800). Check that marks on camshaft drive and driven pulleys are aligned with their mating marks. If either mark is not aligned properly, re-install belt and align it correctly. 6) Install camshaft drive pulley plate. 7) Install cam belt cover 8) Using crank * camshaft pulley wrench (499205500), tighten crankshaft bolts. 9) Adjust valve clearences. Install rocker cover and air cleaner.
You don't seem like the kind of guy to admit when he is wrong but your stock would go up if you did. Redroo, as usual, you are a classy guy and a wealth of good information on all things, especially Subaru Justys. I am sorry that I have not been able to participate more in this matter. I have been very busy photodocumenting many in depth repairs on a USM Justy EF12 and working many hours at my day job as well.
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