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Post by Armageddous on May 19, 2015 0:00:06 GMT -5
I see. That is an interesting setup. I suppose all the oil travel will cool it down.. You just hope to hell the reserve doesn't starve.
Relying on 2 pumps and a network of hoses would concern me but it's not like you daily drive this thing. I always have "I have to get to work" in mind when I think about stuff I want to change!
Really cool. I can't wait to see it in action. I recently did a job on a Nissan Pickup with a KA24E, check out it's oil pump. External, shaft driven with built in relief.
Terry
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Post by Armageddous on May 19, 2015 0:10:19 GMT -5
Terry
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Post by madmatt on May 19, 2015 19:54:21 GMT -5
Lol... I looked at that pump... nearly went that route, but for various reasons I decided against it. Ut would be way easier to stack several rotors if you wanted to make your own multi stage dry sump pump. Anyway, The SBC pump has a built in relief in nearly the same fashion, it's guts are in my aluminum block. Seems spur gears are "tougher" for handling foamy oil (but not as good at lifting) then gear rotors, and the cheep cheep in me means I can replace my spur gears for like 20 buck if they wear Gotta love North American muscle cars. And very unlikely the reserve would starve... as that is the point off pulling more volume out then you are putting in. And I'll have 6 L of oil I can monitor. Also I have it plumbed so if the scavenge pump looses suction, it will continue to have oil in the line going up to the reservoir, So it's won;t loose its actual prime. In theory...
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Post by Armageddous on May 19, 2015 23:10:46 GMT -5
Why did you drysump over just "upgrading"? Is it that beneficial?
Terry
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Post by madmatt on May 20, 2015 7:36:36 GMT -5
After Tall Pines this past fall, "upgrading" was my first thought. Extend the rotor and rotor housing to increase pumping volume. But I still didn't know what really went wrong, was the motor pulling oil but it's just too hot (I had swapped the oil temp gauge to water temp because the water temp wasn't working, and I've had overheating problems in the past too...), was it too aerated due to the limited sump size, was it cavitating on the jumps... I had built a windage tray for the last motor, which should have helped the cavitation problem, but not the others... So I set out to just extend the pump, put in an oil cooler, and an "accusump" which is just a pressure accumulator and if or when you loose pressure due to cavitation it keeps it up. Then I spoke with a guy who used to prep the Justies "back in the day" that did really well in the Canadian Rally Championship. He said they had gone to a dry sump system using an electric oil pump, and that solved their problems outright. I thought about going electric, but it seemed too simple For years I had thought about doing this (building the pumps from stock pumps). I could find no-one that had, so I figured that was the challenge. Oh, and this has been the "dirt cheap" way to do it.
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Post by Armageddous on May 20, 2015 22:18:45 GMT -5
Seems logical. I guess it gives you room underneath, too, whereas my "larger oil pan" likely wouldn't last 10 minutes in a rally situation. To be replaced..
Now that you mention electric you have my brain going. It would really suck to rely on electric just based on how easily something can fail, however, with electric you can set a generous dropout switch setup with the coil power and make the engine cut at <10psi or something. Picking up a dirt-cheap SBC/SBF pump and adding an electric motor with a PWM controller would be pretty straight forward. Moving right along..
Do you plan to run synthetic to help with foaming? By the way, where'd you pick up that oil filter adapter?
Also that plate you made up for the cam gear, how did you cut it? Was it just from a sheet?
Terry
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Post by madmatt on May 22, 2015 16:23:13 GMT -5
Completely illogical... Rallying this thing is just stupid now... it's more an exercise in "doin' it on the cheap" and having fun... Parts are hard to source, it makes no power compared to new cars it's size (echo's etc) paint looks awful and smells bad. But I build it and I seem to love it for all it's faults. Now that you mention electric you have my brain going. It would really suck to rely on electric just based on how easily something can fail, however, with electric you can set a generous dropout switch setup with the coil power and make the engine cut at <10psi or something. Picking up a dirt-cheap SBC/SBF pump and adding an electric motor with a PWM controller would be pretty straight forward. Moving right along.. Terry Many basic "dry sumps" use just a scavange pump and the stock oil pump... this would work perfect for that scenario. I seriously considered this... but, given even with a shimmed bypass valve, I've never seen 50lbs of oil pressure... it would have required the Justyjuggler oil pump volume increase gadgetry... and I wanted MORE. Given the "old adage" that you need 10 lbs per 1000 rpm... and um well, ah, hmm... the motor now still makes power at 7000... yeah Do you plan to run synthetic to help with foaming? By the way, where'd you pick up that oil filter adapter? Terry I'm in the "lots of clean cheap oil, change it often" camp. And the reservoir will act as a "swirl tank" with the oil swirling around the top on inside to de-aerate it. Basic Trans Dapt adapter www.jegs.com/i/Trans-Dapt/969/1358/10002/-1?parentProductId=1580459 Cheep cheep FTW (edit: I drilled and tapped for the temp pick-up) Also that plate you made up for the cam gear, how did you cut it? Was it just from a sheet? Terry Oh my kingdom for a machine shop... Cut from plate with a abrasive disc, cleaned up a bit... then chucked in the drill, spun at a bizillon rpm (or really slowly can't remember which worked better) and with a steady rest, held a grinder to it You should see me turn down rod with the grinder to make bushings!
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Post by Armageddous on May 22, 2015 20:12:00 GMT -5
Oh my kingdom for a machine shop... Cut from plate with a abrasive disc, cleaned up a bit... then chucked in the drill, spun at a bizillon rpm (or really slowly can't remember which worked better) and with a steady rest, held a grinder to it You should see me turn down rod with the grinder to make bushings! Well, I think it looks mighty fine. Terry
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Post by madmatt on Jun 22, 2015 20:10:11 GMT -5
So... um how does 55lbs of idle oil pressure sound!!! ? !!!! Sitting in the back of the "B" The modified pan Getting to be a tight fit back there for everything... I can pull the alternator with the motor in place... but only just... Still some work to do, but fired it up... it made 45 lbs on the starter with no plugs in... that brought a smile to my face. Then fired it up... pressure shot to 80 lbs before I thing the relief valve opened... must have been stuck, I got nervous. Then, sudden drop to 45 lbs. and steady. I shut it down and turned up the pressure, now sitting at a nice steady 55 lbs. Still have to break in the motor build, so no real high RPM numbers. Only a minute or so of total idle time... No leaks in the pump system (even with the 80 lbs!) but I'm leaking at the pan where I used the cork gasket. ARGH, I think that will come out and get permatexed... Cabin reeks of oil, as right now the tank vents in there, that's kinda nice Will vent it outside later.
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Post by Armageddous on Jun 23, 2015 21:21:29 GMT -5
That is gorgeous!
Video??
Terry
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Post by madmatt on Jun 23, 2015 22:25:18 GMT -5
Hopefully soon
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Post by bizarro on Jun 23, 2015 23:34:58 GMT -5
is this it??
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Post by madmatt on Jun 24, 2015 23:23:29 GMT -5
yeah...
No.
Nice plow though
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Post by southerner on Jul 4, 2015 21:15:44 GMT -5
I was about to tell you, why not use a oil cooler and an electric pump. I'm intrested on seen how this develops.. BTW Terry you said "you can set a generous dropout switch setup with the coil power and make the engine cut at <10psi or something".. do you mean automatically cut at low pressure ? how would you do that ?
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Post by madmatt on Jul 5, 2015 8:37:30 GMT -5
I was about to tell you, why not use a oil cooler and an electric pump. I'm intrested on seen how this develops.. BTW Terry you said "you can set a generous dropout switch setup with the coil power and make the engine cut at <10psi or something".. do you mean automatically cut at low pressure ? how would you do that ? As mentioned I considered the electric oil pump. But for a true dry sump, that would require at least 2 electric oil pumps, and space is limited as it is, and really they would need to be different pumping volumes, although that could have been controlled electronically (speed)... And electric power isn't free power, the alternator already only just keeps the lights (400 watts) alive at night on a 10 min stage... , so I'd still have pumping loss, just now taxing the alternator. The current belt is pretty efficient power transfer. The plumbing would have still been complex. The sort of electric oil pump required is not a Home depot type pump, we're talking min $250 so that's $500 in pumps, might as well buy an off the shelf dry-sump pump for that price. Could have used an electric pump, non-dry sumped, just in lieu of the stock pump, still $250 and a bunch of plumbing. Not saying it's not an interesting look at solving the problem, I went that way for a while. As for Terry's shut down, yes, simply have a pressure switch shut down power to the coil (simple relay) and the engine would shut down at the low pressure on the switch. This is pretty common in the racing world to save engines from drivers I should consider it! edit... should also add pressure drop outs are very common on things like stationary motors... where there is not an operator standing by (think diesel generators, wood chippers etc)
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Post by southerner on Jul 5, 2015 10:24:48 GMT -5
Didn't thought it'll be that complex to add an extra oil pump ! And now i'm wondering what would happen to the current if i change the bulbs for xenon.. i guess adapting a different alternator ain't that easy either ? I'll try to find a switch such as you mention.. Why not add an oil cooler with a pump pulling hot oil from the top and pushing it back straight on the oil pan ?.. i'm not trowing an idea at you, i'm pulling experience from you the actual question is, why wount that work ? Edit: Just googled the dry sump.. the trick is the pump then.. either get more amps for an electric one, or fabricate a mechanical one (insane)..
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Post by madmatt on Jul 5, 2015 11:29:05 GMT -5
you should be fine with a simple headlight upgrade...
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Post by madmatt on Jul 5, 2015 19:35:11 GMT -5
Why not add an oil cooler with a pump pulling hot oil from the top and pushing it back straight on the oil pan ?.. i'm not trowing an idea at you, i'm pulling experience from you the actual question is, why wount that work ? That is actually quite a sound idea, and would be a perfectly fine way to simply cool the oil without adding extra pumping losses to the stock pump. You could downgrade the pump from the $250 type to those ebay "diff cooler pumps" that are like $75... without fear of loosing the engine if it blew. But... it would still be quite a bit of plumbing work. probably, in most cases adding a simple spin on oil cooler adapter and cooling the oil that way (as has been documented here many times and maybe Terry (Armageddous) has one on top of his massive sump which I think holds 5 liters or something? I want to safely spin 7000 rpm... and need at min 70 psi
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Post by bizarro on Jul 5, 2015 23:03:52 GMT -5
5 liters....on a justy......
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Post by southerner on Jul 6, 2015 9:21:19 GMT -5
Lol.. that's a nice lightning setup ! is it on original battery/alternator setup ?! my light is somewhat dim.. i guess the battery is about to die on me.. Btw, i've been looking for the oil cooling setup, if i had to use it in my Justy, i'd try to fit it besides the AC radiator, wich is right behind the main water radiator..
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